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市場觀察 (Looking into the Market) Inițiatorul discuției: Wenjer Leuschel (X)
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redred 
China
Local time: 18:11
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Yueyin Sun wrote: I definitely agree with you! Actually, there is no such a thing as the standard “market rate”. I am glad that they didn’t tell you that they got that standard “market rate” from the Chinese forum at ProZ.com. 
章子怡是土生土长的北京女孩，在中国生活，现在不一样收国际价嘛，难道本土“产品”必然是廉价的代名词。价格趋同，更能够体现公平竞争。
[Edited at 2007-05-25 05:34]
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ysun
Statele Unite
Local time: 05:11
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| “价格趋同”只是一种美好的愿望 | May 25, 2007 |
redred wrote:
章子怡是土生土长的北京女孩，在中国生活，现在不一样收国际价嘛，难道本土“产品”必然是廉价的代名词。价格趋同，更能够体现公平竞争。
没有人认为“本土‘产品’必然是廉价的代名词”。我不久前说过，翻译市场是鱼目混珠。中国如此，美国也是如此。中国的“珠”我也见过，美国的“鱼目”我也见过。
事实上，不可能由什么人或由什么机构来决定一个所谓的“standard market rate”。如果可能，我倒是很希望中国大陆的翻译们都统一把价格提到所谓的国际价格，例如USD$0.33/word以上。如果那样，就不会再有翻译公司会拿USD$0.06/word Max.来压我们的价了。
土生土长的章子怡可以收所谓的国际价，那是否意味着所有的中国演员都可以收章子怡那样的国际价了？
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Kevin Yang
Local time: 03:11
Membru (2003)
din engleză în chineză
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| I do not know what the rate that Zhang Ziyi charges. | May 25, 2007 |
redred wrote:
章子怡是土生土长的北京女孩，在中国生活，现在不一样收国际价嘛，难道本土“产品”必然是廉价的代名词。价格趋同，更能够体现公平竞争。
I do not know what the rate that Zhang Ziyi charges. If you do not know, perhaps you are not in the position to speak for her. Whatever the rate she charges, I know she delivers what the people expect from her.
If you are arguing about the points I made in my previous message, I can let you know that those rates I got in Beijing were not the rates that I am familiar with. If they are the market rates, I can tell you that they are not from the market in the United States. Rate is one thing, but I am more interested in seeing what I am paying for.
[修改时间: 2007-05-25 07:48]
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Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 18:11
din engleză în chineză
+ ...
INIŢIATORUL SUBIECTULUI
Yueyin Sun wrote:
没有人认为“本土‘产品’必然是廉价的代名词”。我不久前说过，翻译市场是鱼目混珠。中国如此，美国也是如此。中国的“珠”我也见过，美国的“鱼目”我也见过。
事实上，不可能由什么人或由什么机构来决定一个所谓的“standard market rate”。如果可能，我倒是很希望中国大陆的翻译们都统一把价格提到所谓的国际价格，例如USD$0.33/word以上。如果那样，就不会再有翻译公司会拿USD$0.06/word Max.来压我们的价了。
土生土长的章子怡可以收所谓的国际价，那是否意味着所有的中国演员都可以收章子怡那样的国际价了？
曾经在 ProZ 文学论坛担任 Moderator 的阿根廷翻译者 Aurora Humarán 在 Knowledge Base 里写了一篇文章说明阿根廷翻译者对于国际价格的看法，以及他们维持价格的策略。我已多次提及那篇文章。自由译者能不能团结，维持住价位，那就看社群的觉醒了。
至于 0.33 以上的价位并非国际价格，那是某些人在某些状况下可以取得的价格，但不是一式通用的价格。0.01 的价格我也拿过，那是曾经帮同仁审修的价格。比方说，周丹或东来翻译的稿子，对我而言审修起来毫不费劲，能有 0.01 的价格和他们合作，我已经非常满足了。我的正常做法是直接让他们和客户做，虽然接上线的不多，但至少这样做，我可以一分一毫都不赚他们的。
还是 Kevin 说得对：自己想要什么价比较重要，合价者承接，不合价者 no money, no honey，这不是很简单吗？
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ysun
Statele Unite
Local time: 05:11
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| 并非谁都明白这简单的道理 | May 25, 2007 |
Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
合价者承接，不合价者 no money, no honey，这不是很简单吗？
像Kevin所说的那两位报价$800.00 per day per person (five-hour work per day)的北京翻译，如果没人用他们，那还不是白搭？
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pkchan
Statele Unite
Local time: 06:11
Membru (2006)
din engleză în chineză
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（向翻譯勞動者）購入價是每字1美仙，賣出（給終端客戶）價是33美仙，無論經營費、審稿費、個人利得稅是多少多少，這是一門封了虧本門的生意。翻譯勞動者是願者上釣（吊），價低者得。翻譯買辦緊握終端客戶，尋求與低價翻譯勞動者合作。這不是一個人吃人的市場環境又是什麼？
[Edited at 2007-05-25 18:50]
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pkchan
Statele Unite
Local time: 06:11
Membru (2006)
din engleză în chineză
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Eizie - Average translation rates - 2007These translation rates are those recommended by EIZIE (Association of Basque language Translators, Interpreters, and Correctors) and aimed at informing its ...
www.eizie.org/en/Tresnak/Tarifak - 17k - Cached - Similar pages
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Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 18:11
din engleză în chineză
+ ...
INIŢIATORUL SUBIECTULUI
Yueyin Sun wrote: Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
合价者承接，不合价者 no money, no honey，这不是很简单吗？
像Kevin所说的那两位报价$800.00 per day per person (five-hour work per day)的北京翻译，如果没人用他们，那还不是白搭？
没人用那报价一天 800 的人，但是他们的自我感觉很好，既不相信有人能开出比他们还高的价，也不相信比他们底价的做得比他们好。这是没办法的事，有的人既要做婊子又要立牌坊，立个牌坊给他就是。
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ysun
Statele Unite
Local time: 05:11
din engleză în chineză
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Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
没人用那报价一天 800 的人
文哲：
据我所知，确有客户会在中国用一天 800美元 （甚至更高）的口译者，但你得有那么两下子才行，对不对？
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我有次从国内作口译回美国，和一个在中国有分公司的美国公司老总坐在隔壁，他们在青岛请的女翻译是每天400元人民币。大一点的城市每天800元人民币比较靠谱，高的可以到1200元，再高的也有，但那不是市场价，比如一个公司需要翻译，找一个关系户提供翻译，关系户推荐自己的亲属，结果对方可能会给3000块，而且只有两个小时的工作，这样的情况我听说过，所以说，那不... See more 我有次从国内作口译回美国，和一个在中国有分公司的美国公司老总坐在隔壁，他们在青岛请的女翻译是每天400元人民币。大一点的城市每天800元人民币比较靠谱，高的可以到1200元，再高的也有，但那不是市场价，比如一个公司需要翻译，找一个关系户提供翻译，关系户推荐自己的亲属，结果对方可能会给3000块，而且只有两个小时的工作，这样的情况我听说过，所以说，那不是市场价格，只是顺便送给对方一点好处，属于腐败价格。
同传价格会高一些，比如说一天同传一个岗位可以到12000元，两个人分。以前我也分析过，国内作同传一天的工作量需要一个星期的准备工作，查生词、查背景资料，熟悉讲稿，我的估计是一个小时100元，后来在网上看到一个翻译机构的权威人士出来说明，他也是同样的说法，不过他说的每小时价格是75元。我以前在这里说过，我有次通过一个翻译公司去休斯敦给ExxonMobile作两个小时的同传，是中海油的一个高层代表团访问，美方共有四个人讲话，分别属于石油行业上游（勘探开采）、下游（炼油）以及涵盖全部业务范围的ExxonMobile总部的研究中心的人发言。工作算一天，来回路途时间算一天半，收费2500美元，按国内不诚实的翻译们的说法，就是一个小时1250美元。
所谓同传是金领的说法只是那些翻译自己编出来的，不计入背后的准备工作时间，希望客户都相信他们那样的价格，索取高价，和Kevin遇到的两小时报800美元的人属于一路货色，这些人不是靠做事挣钱的人，只是骗子而已。
Wenjer Leuschel wrote: Yueyin Sun wrote: Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
合价者承接，不合价者 no money, no honey，这不是很简单吗？
像Kevin所说的那两位报价$800.00 per day per person (five-hour work per day)的北京翻译，如果没人用他们，那还不是白搭？ 没人用那报价一天 800 的人，但是他们的自我感觉很好，既不相信有人能开出比他们还高的价，也不相信比他们底价的做得比他们好。这是没办法的事，有的人既要做婊子又要立牌坊，立个牌坊给他就是。
[Edited at 2007-05-26 01:13] ▲ Collapse
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Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 18:11
din engleză în chineză
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INIŢIATORUL SUBIECTULUI
Libin PhD wrote:
属于腐败价格。
李兄点到了。腐败用品有时必须以腐败价格采买。
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“腐败用品有时必须以腐败价格采买。”文哲，你说的一点不错。
Wenjer Leuschel wrote: Libin PhD wrote:
属于腐败价格。
李兄点到了。腐败用品有时必须以腐败价格采买。
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Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 18:11
din engleză în chineză
+ ...
INIŢIATORUL SUBIECTULUI
Yueyin Sun wrote:
据我所知，确有客户会在中国用一天 800美元 （甚至更高）的口译者，但你得有那么两下子才行，对不对？
是的，乐音兄，除了腐败价外，确实有超过 800 美元一天的价钱，那是参与谈判的口译者价钱。专业不精，根本不会被询问有无意愿参与工作。
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ysun
Statele Unite
Local time: 05:11
din engleză în chineză
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| 报价不能采用“头戴三尺帽，不怕砍一刀”的策略 | May 26, 2007 |
Kevin Yang wrote:
Then we put all our hope on the last pair who quoted USD $200.00 per day (five-hour work per day). They passed the phone interview with flying colors and got hired instantly, and they later also provided excellent on-site service. If you ask me if I will ever contact the first two pairs of interpreters for future jobs, the answer is no. However, I will definitely try the last team again if another project comes up.
Libin PhD wrote:
我有次从国内作口译回美国，和一个在中国有分公司的美国公司老总坐在隔壁，他们在青岛请的女翻译是每天400元人民币。大一点的城市每天800元人民币比较靠谱，高的可以到1200元，再高的也有，但那不是市场价
根据李斌介绍的国内行情，Kevin最后录用翻译的价格USD $200.00 per day (five-hour work per day)，对那两个翻译来说应该已经是很好的价格了。
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| 谈谈我的高质量口译客户收费和工作的情况 | May 26, 2007 |
Wenjer Leuschel wrote: Yueyin Sun wrote:
据我所知，确有客户会在中国用一天 800美元 （甚至更高）的口译者，但你得有那么两下子才行，对不对？ 是的，乐音兄，除了腐败价外，确实有超过 800 美元一天的价钱，那是参与谈判的口译者价钱。专业不精，根本不会被询问有无意愿参与工作。
既然乐音和文哲都谈到了比较高的口译收费确实有，我就来谈谈自己最近两次口译经历吧。本来不想写，怕有些网友看了后觉得我以高手自居，会伤人家的自尊，但是既然谈到这里说说也无妨，至少我不会说假话。
最近三月份到香港去做过一次口译，四月回北京给微软做了一次。香港的工作两个星期，是达拉斯的一家石油咨询公司请我的，香港公司本来有一个上市公司在香港挂牌，但是公司的老板最近从马达加斯加买了几个石油区块，他们要先把其中的一个区块的资产注入到现有的上市公司，香港联交所要求提供该区块的权威评估报告，但是地质资料都是中国石油大学做的，都是中文，所以达拉斯的咨询公司要请我去帮忙，主要是Sight interpreting，就是看着报告给他们翻译成英文，他们边听边记录，然后在报告中采用需要的部分，他们的英文报告出来后，要我翻译成繁体中文，因为香港公司的老板不懂英文，而且香港联交所也要求提供中英文版本。结果达拉斯和香港的客户都非常高兴，达拉斯的公司去了两位副总，负责地质的副总对我的工作非常满意，并且经常给香港的老板说。香港公司的这个老板是我到现在见到的第一个真正的富商，他在香港的家总共有5万平房英尺，约合4500平方米，家里用十个佣人，四个司机，四个菲佣，两个保安，都是用对讲机联络。这位许老板在国内也很有名，是全国政协委员，中国十大扶贫状元，又是香港的太平绅士，还是马达加斯加驻香港名誉领事，他们买石油区块都是和马达加斯加的总统和能源部长直接联系的。因为跟石油挂上了钩，我们去工作的第一个星期，他们上市公司的市值就增加了5亿港币，第二个星期二，一天就涨了37%而停板。这位老板许先生对我的工作应该算是比较满意，我回来的那天，他中午在一家高档餐厅请我吃饭，算是送行，我们平常吃的牛筋，就是牛膝盖上的筋，红烧出来像是半透明的样子，那天他请的一道菜是熊的同一部位的东西，即熊筋，当然还有鲍鱼。他们老是叫我博士，只有一位英文很好的副总的first name叫Patrick，我一直叫他Patrick，他也一直叫我Bin，感到很习惯。吃饭的时候就跟他们说，请不要叫我博士了，不太习惯，开始不熟悉的时候，你们叫，我就接受了，现在大家熟悉了，没有必要，就叫我李斌最好，但是许老板不同意，他说，那不行，你是当之无愧，我们还是要叫你李博士，老板说话了，谁也不敢不听，只好忍受了。下午去机场的时候，他派了他的大奔S600送我到机场，还专门给他的助手说，李博士的行李没有交运之前，你不能离开。这次香港的工作十天，加上来回两天共12天，每天收费2600多美元。
香港的公司总共有四个石油区块，我们刚刚做了第一个的区块的初步报告，还要做完整的报告，而且第二个区块的工作也启动了，达拉斯的同事已经打电话来，说客户要做第二个区块，问我最近的日程安排如何，这样的好客户当然有优先权使用我的服务。
我们自由职业者做事可以比较灵活，有时候混一下也能混过去，但是这样你是不会有出路的。光有能力做好也不够，还要有敬业精神，真正用心把客户的事情做到最好，让客户真心满意，才能赢得客户的尊重，才会不断地有高质量的业务，这对我们自由翻译是至关重要的。也就是说，要做好事必须先做人做得好才行。老美他们英文报告出来后，就去新加坡、马来西亚和菲律宾处理他们公司的其他业务，我留下来翻译成中文，由于许老板不看英文，等着看中文，我三天三夜呆在酒店没有出门，累了就睡，醒了就做，饿了去酒店楼下的几个餐厅随便吃一点，结果在尽可能快的情况下作出来了，这就是为客户着想，人家等着很急呢。但是急也不能影响质量，作出来的东西许老板当然知道好坏，所以就是尽量体谅客户，尽力做到最好。
四月份给微软（中国）的翻译是通过一家咨询培训公司，他们已经给微软培训了2500多人次。本来和美国微软说好就是他们两个讲英语的人去培训，但是后来微软（中国）坚持要有翻译，否则就取消项目，算是给他们救了驾。所以他们请了我。结果效果又非常好，微软中国的两个主管（负责人是微软大中华地区中型和小型企业的销售总监，也是海龟，妻子和女儿在美国）多次对我的美国客户称赞我的翻译做的好，说不论中译英还是英译中，每次都是几句话很快译完，而且准确。只有两天的培训，加上来回两天，也是每天2600多美元。当然，这样的活不是经常有，不能用这样的报酬来计算收入的：）
回来后，美国的咨询公司客户给我来了一封信，要请我作为业务伙伴加入他们的公司并获得他们的执照。我给他回信表示愿意，上次见面的时候他说我的回信写得那么好，他都把其中的一段话拿来用在他们给IBM的一封市场营销信中了。IBM总裁的十年合同正好做到一半，现在希望自己能够在五年后离职时留下一点让后人记住的遗产（Legacy），他们现在由一个副总组织一个五人小组专门负责这个任务，看看能作些什么让老总的愿望实现，我的这个咨询公司客户从55年到99年一直给IBM作咨询和培训，也给IBM培训了2000多人次，后来转到了微软，他在IBM还是有很多熟人，所以希望把在现在给微软做的业务扩大到IBM。所以在和IBM联系，六月的最后两个星期，IBM就会派人来和他们详谈。他说的用了我的电子邮件中的一段话是这样的：We have seen that both Microsoft and the channel reseller were so happy with your program which is lean and effective. These courses are dearly needed in China as the Chinese are more delicate when communicating with each other and they need such help to become more open and straightforward. That will help their business immensely. 结果他和我见面的时候说，I have taken the liberty to use it in a recent IBM marketing letter. it is so well written. 没想到随便写的一点自己的真实感受却派上了大用场。
下面是我和他的几封邮件往来，我把公司的名称和当事人的姓隐去了，只留了first name，也隐去了价格和收入的具体数字。这个实例再一次说明，努力为客户做好工作，不投机取巧是获得客户信任的最好办法。
________________________________________
From: howard
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 2:54 AM
To: Bin Li
Cc: Bob; Daphne
Subject: XXXXX
Dear Bin,
As you know, we are greatly impressed with your talents and our experience working with you.
We (the owners of XXXXX) are wondering if you,
1. are interested in being licensed by XXXXX as a:
a. business partner, or
b. instructor, or
c. agent
2. would help develop business leads of companies / organizations that could use:
a. CREW
b. READINESS
We understand that your main business is translating and being a translator, but it seems to us that you could easily fit our activities into your overall business. Let’s start a dialog about this.
Best personal regards,
Howard
________________________________________
From: Bin Li [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:49 AM
To: 'howard'
Cc: 'Bob; Daphne
Subject: RE: XXXXX
Dear Howard,
Thank you for your kind words. The pleasure was mine as well.
Of course, I will be pleased to be licensed by XXXXX and join you as your business partner, an instructor or an agent. Either way will be fine with me. I will also be glad to help to develop business leads of companies in China that are good candidates to use CREW and READINESS to enhance their business. We have seen that both Microsoft and the channel reseller were so happy with your program which is lean and effective. These courses are dearly needed in China as the Chinese are more delicate when communicating with each other and they need such help to become more open and straightforward. That will help their business immensely.
After being trained and licensed by XXXXX, I will be glad to serve as an Mandarin instructor if companies with employees who are not so conversant in English request a Mandarin instructor. Of course, I will be equally glad to serve as an interpreter for you and Bob when the client's employees can understand some English.
As a matter of fact, I was a pretty good teacher. Many years ago, before I came to the US in 1986, I taught English to students who had completed their bachelor's or Master's degrees in China and received many positive feedbacks. It would be nice to use this skill to help companies boost their business.
Please let me know when you have more details about the specifics of this cooperation.
Kind Regards,
Bin
________________________________________
From: howard
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 11:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Bob; Daphne
Subject: RE: XXXXX
Dear Bin,
Bob and I are very pleased to learn that you are interested in joining us as a business partner (BP)! You have awesome talents. An XXXXX business partner is automatically a qualified instructor and agent—and you make more money. So BP is best. Here’s a table that illustrates a BP’s revenue:
Product / Activity Price XXXXX Royalty BP’s share Instructor fee
Assessment/person $XXXXX 60% 40%
Think tank/person $XXXXX/day 20% 80%
Consulting $XXXXX/day 20% 80%
Instructor fee/day $XXXXX
1. XXXXX’s business model, Bin, is to leverage through BPs.
2. An active BP can make a lot of money in a year.
a. Microsoft China paid $XXXXX plus expenses (of Bob and Howard). The BP would have made $XXXXX for selling the class and teaching it. It was a small class paid above the usual rate.
b. Using the table above, if you have a client with a class of 20 people and 60 raters, you would get:
i. $XXXXX for assessments (60 x $XXXXX x 40%)
ii. $XXXXX for the 2-day workshop (20 x $XXXXX x 80%)
iii. $XXXXX for 1 day of consulting (XXXXX x 1 x 80%)
iv. Total: $XXXXX (assuming no consulting; and assuming you taught the class)
v. If you only sold and held 10 classes annually, you would gross $XXXXX annually.
3. From our experience with similar programs, BPs can make $XXXXX to $XXXXX annually—depending on how seriously they work.
4. XXXXX’s biggest expense is its Assessment Center, which is run by Daphne. That’s why the royalty is 50%/rater.
5. Prices are flexible, but we ask a BP to discuss variations with us a head of negotiating.
6. BP’s own their clients, but if a BP leaves us, clients are turned over to us.
We should start a dialog (email) and construct a business plan for your licensed BP activities.
As soon as you have become more familiar with our courses, we’re prepared to license you. The sooner the better.
Call me and let’s arrange to meet when you’re back in our time zone.
Howard
[Edited at 2007-05-26 06:46]
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