Oct 11, 2013 11:14
10 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Spanish term
que de vos fincar
Spanish to English
Art/Literary
History
The day always comes when some of us receive old documents. This comes from an agreement signed between some monks and an encomendero by whom they were protected (sometimes).
From my text: ... tenga la encomienda “por todos vuestros días” y “después de vuestros días, que la haya el vuestro fillo legítimo varón que de vos fincar por en sus días, e a cabo de sus días que siga la dicha encomienda en nos”.
In a nutshell, the encomendero may hold the abbey for two generations, but eventually the administration goes back to the monks. I imagine it was easy to do this, as the encomendero had no sons. Eventually, he never did. Does "de vos fincar" refer to a son he hopes for?
The full archaic text is on page 13 here: http://www.saber.es/web/biblioteca/libros/merinos-mayores-as...
I'm working with a historical summary.
From my text: ... tenga la encomienda “por todos vuestros días” y “después de vuestros días, que la haya el vuestro fillo legítimo varón que de vos fincar por en sus días, e a cabo de sus días que siga la dicha encomienda en nos”.
In a nutshell, the encomendero may hold the abbey for two generations, but eventually the administration goes back to the monks. I imagine it was easy to do this, as the encomendero had no sons. Eventually, he never did. Does "de vos fincar" refer to a son he hopes for?
The full archaic text is on page 13 here: http://www.saber.es/web/biblioteca/libros/merinos-mayores-as...
I'm working with a historical summary.
Proposed translations
(English)
References
fincar | Beatriz Ramírez de Haro |
Proposed translations
+2
3 hrs
Selected
who remains after you / whom you leave behind / who survives you
Bea has nailed this, by the brilliantly simple idea of looking in the DRAE. I feel a little diffident about answering, on that account, but I got there independently before seeing her reference, so I feel kind of justified. And I can flesh it out a little.
It is amazing, really, that this definition of "fincar" as "quedar" is still in the DRAE, because it was archaic 500 years ago. "Fincar" ("hincar") in this sense is really a variant of "ficar" ("quedar(se)"), but they are often confused in Old Castilian, and most importantly, Old Asturian used "fincar" in both senses. This is usefully explained in this reference, which I see Apolonia also found.
http://www3.udg.edu/fllff/zifar/fincado.htm
So the meaning of "fincar" is "quedar". But what about the syntax? It looks like an infinitive. How does that fit in here?
This is the second crucial point. "Fincar" here is actually an apocopated third person singular future subjunctive: i..e. short for "fincare". This is a common tendency, as Ralph Penny explains in his magisterial A History of the Spanish Language (p. 156):
"3.7.1.4 Apocope of -e
Latin verb forms whose final syllable contained a front vowel preceded by a dental or alveolar consonant should lose this final vowel in accordance with regular phonological development (2.4.3.2), provided the previous syllable was open (i.e. ended in a vowel). This rule of apocope is indeed frequently applied to the Old Spanish verb, so that we can observe the following medieval forms [...]:
[...]
3rd pers. sing. fut. subj. estovier, tomar".
http://books.google.es/books?id=ZjcrhyQlFa0C&pg=PA215&lpg=PA...
"Fincar" is another of these. So it's "el vuestro fillo legítimo varón que de vos fincar[e]", meaning (uninverted and with modern equivalent present subjunctive): "[...] que quede de vos". And it means literally "who [in future] remains from you", in other words, who is left after you die, who survives you.
In practice, you may choose to say "your surviving legitimate son". Anyway, that's the meaning.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2013-10-11 15:01:18 GMT)
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Just to add another bit of useless information, I'm very interested to see this two-lifetimes grant (the grantee until he dies and then his son until he dies, and then it reverts to the grantor), because I've seen the same thing in the period I'm more familiar with, the seventeenth century. It looks like an old legal institution.
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Note added at 3 hrs (2013-10-11 15:06:05 GMT)
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Rather belatedly, I've read your question more carefully. So the grantee had no sons. The sense of the subjunctive is therefore "your surviving son (should you have one)".
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Note added at 22 hrs (2013-10-12 10:03:20 GMT)
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By the way, just as a point of interest, the future subjunctive (3rd p. sing.) of "fincar" in modern Portuguese is also "fincar".
It is amazing, really, that this definition of "fincar" as "quedar" is still in the DRAE, because it was archaic 500 years ago. "Fincar" ("hincar") in this sense is really a variant of "ficar" ("quedar(se)"), but they are often confused in Old Castilian, and most importantly, Old Asturian used "fincar" in both senses. This is usefully explained in this reference, which I see Apolonia also found.
http://www3.udg.edu/fllff/zifar/fincado.htm
So the meaning of "fincar" is "quedar". But what about the syntax? It looks like an infinitive. How does that fit in here?
This is the second crucial point. "Fincar" here is actually an apocopated third person singular future subjunctive: i..e. short for "fincare". This is a common tendency, as Ralph Penny explains in his magisterial A History of the Spanish Language (p. 156):
"3.7.1.4 Apocope of -e
Latin verb forms whose final syllable contained a front vowel preceded by a dental or alveolar consonant should lose this final vowel in accordance with regular phonological development (2.4.3.2), provided the previous syllable was open (i.e. ended in a vowel). This rule of apocope is indeed frequently applied to the Old Spanish verb, so that we can observe the following medieval forms [...]:
[...]
3rd pers. sing. fut. subj. estovier, tomar".
http://books.google.es/books?id=ZjcrhyQlFa0C&pg=PA215&lpg=PA...
"Fincar" is another of these. So it's "el vuestro fillo legítimo varón que de vos fincar[e]", meaning (uninverted and with modern equivalent present subjunctive): "[...] que quede de vos". And it means literally "who [in future] remains from you", in other words, who is left after you die, who survives you.
In practice, you may choose to say "your surviving legitimate son". Anyway, that's the meaning.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2013-10-11 15:01:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Just to add another bit of useless information, I'm very interested to see this two-lifetimes grant (the grantee until he dies and then his son until he dies, and then it reverts to the grantor), because I've seen the same thing in the period I'm more familiar with, the seventeenth century. It looks like an old legal institution.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2013-10-11 15:06:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Rather belatedly, I've read your question more carefully. So the grantee had no sons. The sense of the subjunctive is therefore "your surviving son (should you have one)".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2013-10-12 10:03:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
By the way, just as a point of interest, the future subjunctive (3rd p. sing.) of "fincar" in modern Portuguese is also "fincar".
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
3 hrs
|
Gracias, Bea :) ¡Saludos!
|
|
agree |
Wendy Petzall
10 hrs
|
Thanks, Wendy :)
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thanks above all to Bea, wish I could give you the points."
39 mins
to whom it would attach after you
An archaic form of "fijar" perhaps? To affix, establish, set, build, attribute to, attach... Some interesting Lat Am contemporary usages in Linguee below.
I would hazard: "to your legitimate male offspring to whom it would attach after you for [the duration] of his days"
I would hazard: "to your legitimate male offspring to whom it would attach after you for [the duration] of his days"
48 mins
from kneeling before you
I am thinking this might be "hincar" deciphered by the medieval f to h shift
2 hrs
Spanish term (edited):
que de vos fincar, e a cabo de sus días
who will cultivate/manage it on your behalf (during his lifetime)
OR
who will inherit the use of it for the duration of his lifetime...., (at the end of which it will pass back to us)
just a couple of (possibly feasible, but wildly different?) guesses, I'm afraid, drawn from the context provided...
who will inherit the use of it for the duration of his lifetime...., (at the end of which it will pass back to us)
just a couple of (possibly feasible, but wildly different?) guesses, I'm afraid, drawn from the context provided...
2 hrs
to whom it would be conveyed/to whom it would devolve
This is my take on it - that the rights would devolve to his son (should he have one) for the son's lifetime.
Examples:www.docstoc.com/.../COURT-OF-APPEAL-FOR-TH...
09/11/2009 - If Townsley could discuss with his mother the issues of what property would be conveyed, to whom it would devolve after her death, and who ...boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.../mb.ashx
11/03/2000 - Location: Pahaquarry Tp.- Property conveyed to his son, Abraham, now deceased which is to be divided among the heirs of James and ...
Examples:www.docstoc.com/.../COURT-OF-APPEAL-FOR-TH...
09/11/2009 - If Townsley could discuss with his mother the issues of what property would be conveyed, to whom it would devolve after her death, and who ...boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.../mb.ashx
11/03/2000 - Location: Pahaquarry Tp.- Property conveyed to his son, Abraham, now deceased which is to be divided among the heirs of James and ...
Reference comments
1 hr
Reference:
fincar
fincar.
(Del lat. vulg. *figicāre 'fijar', con -n-, quizá por infl. de fingĕre 'moldear', 'fingir').
1. tr. ant. hincar (‖ introducir o clavar algo en otra cosa).
2. intr. Adquirir fincas. U. t. c. prnl.
3. intr. ant. quedar.
Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados
Según la tercera acepción (arcaica) sería literalmente "el hijo que quede detrás de vos" (el hijo que dejéis / vuestro hijo)
(Del lat. vulg. *figicāre 'fijar', con -n-, quizá por infl. de fingĕre 'moldear', 'fingir').
1. tr. ant. hincar (‖ introducir o clavar algo en otra cosa).
2. intr. Adquirir fincas. U. t. c. prnl.
3. intr. ant. quedar.
Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados
Según la tercera acepción (arcaica) sería literalmente "el hijo que quede detrás de vos" (el hijo que dejéis / vuestro hijo)
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree |
Maria Alvarez
1 hr
|
Gracias María Lila - Bea
|
|
agree |
Apolonia Dermit
: http://www3.udg.edu/fllff/zifar/fincado.htm
1 hr
|
Gracias, Apolonia - Bea
|
|
agree |
Charles Davis
2 hrs
|
Gracias, Charles- Bea
|
|
agree |
Noni Gilbert Riley
3 hrs
|
Gracias, Noni - Bea
|
Discussion
El texto es del románico.