Oct 11, 2013 11:14
10 yrs ago
2 viewers *
Spanish term

que de vos fincar

Spanish to English Art/Literary History
The day always comes when some of us receive old documents. This comes from an agreement signed between some monks and an encomendero by whom they were protected (sometimes).

From my text: ... tenga la encomienda “por todos vuestros días” y “después de vuestros días, que la haya el vuestro fillo legítimo varón que de vos fincar por en sus días, e a cabo de sus días que siga la dicha encomienda en nos”.

In a nutshell, the encomendero may hold the abbey for two generations, but eventually the administration goes back to the monks. I imagine it was easy to do this, as the encomendero had no sons. Eventually, he never did. Does "de vos fincar" refer to a son he hopes for?

The full archaic text is on page 13 here: http://www.saber.es/web/biblioteca/libros/merinos-mayores-as...

I'm working with a historical summary.

Discussion

Parrot (asker) Oct 11, 2013:
Thx, I agree and as well that this would be subjunctive. D. Pedro is 50 when this is written, has no legitimate son, and every writer on the subject feels the monks just crossed their fingers when they wrote it - that after he died, they would be free. He was a rather bossy (and violent) man. Killed his own nephew, in fact, but that's historical gossip from another monograph.
Parrot (asker) Oct 11, 2013:
from María Moliner fincable = restante. Legitimate son of yours surviving?
Parrot (asker) Oct 11, 2013:
To give an idea The text includes quotes in Old Asturian.
franglish Oct 11, 2013:
takes over from you or something to that effect, would make sense. In the wording of the time, of which I have no knowledge I'm afraid.
Parrot (asker) Oct 11, 2013:
@Maria It is a funny text in that it talks about encomiendas and adelantados well before colonial times. In fact, well before the concerted reconquista. At that time, the adelantado was simply a military commander placed in a "forward-looking" (border) post, and the encomienda is not a productive economic unit as much as it is a military commandry. Wars were between neighbouring countries that used to exist in what is now Spain and the Muslims aren't even mentioned.
Parrot (asker) Oct 11, 2013:
Tengo que descartar la idea Fue Pedro Suárez de Quiñones, que no tuvo hijos (que se sepa). Legítimos, de todos modos.
El texto es del románico.
Mariano Wadi Jacobo Oct 11, 2013:
El "por" me deja pensando sí no significa que dicho hijo del encomendero estará representándolo durante su vida.

Proposed translations

+2
3 hrs
Selected

who remains after you / whom you leave behind / who survives you

Bea has nailed this, by the brilliantly simple idea of looking in the DRAE. I feel a little diffident about answering, on that account, but I got there independently before seeing her reference, so I feel kind of justified. And I can flesh it out a little.

It is amazing, really, that this definition of "fincar" as "quedar" is still in the DRAE, because it was archaic 500 years ago. "Fincar" ("hincar") in this sense is really a variant of "ficar" ("quedar(se)"), but they are often confused in Old Castilian, and most importantly, Old Asturian used "fincar" in both senses. This is usefully explained in this reference, which I see Apolonia also found.
http://www3.udg.edu/fllff/zifar/fincado.htm

So the meaning of "fincar" is "quedar". But what about the syntax? It looks like an infinitive. How does that fit in here?

This is the second crucial point. "Fincar" here is actually an apocopated third person singular future subjunctive: i..e. short for "fincare". This is a common tendency, as Ralph Penny explains in his magisterial A History of the Spanish Language (p. 156):

"3.7.1.4 Apocope of -e
Latin verb forms whose final syllable contained a front vowel preceded by a dental or alveolar consonant should lose this final vowel in accordance with regular phonological development (2.4.3.2), provided the previous syllable was open (i.e. ended in a vowel). This rule of apocope is indeed frequently applied to the Old Spanish verb, so that we can observe the following medieval forms [...]:
[...]
3rd pers. sing. fut. subj. estovier, tomar".
http://books.google.es/books?id=ZjcrhyQlFa0C&pg=PA215&lpg=PA...

"Fincar" is another of these. So it's "el vuestro fillo legítimo varón que de vos fincar[e]", meaning (uninverted and with modern equivalent present subjunctive): "[...] que quede de vos". And it means literally "who [in future] remains from you", in other words, who is left after you die, who survives you.

In practice, you may choose to say "your surviving legitimate son". Anyway, that's the meaning.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2013-10-11 15:01:18 GMT)
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Just to add another bit of useless information, I'm very interested to see this two-lifetimes grant (the grantee until he dies and then his son until he dies, and then it reverts to the grantor), because I've seen the same thing in the period I'm more familiar with, the seventeenth century. It looks like an old legal institution.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2013-10-11 15:06:05 GMT)
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Rather belatedly, I've read your question more carefully. So the grantee had no sons. The sense of the subjunctive is therefore "your surviving son (should you have one)".

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Note added at 22 hrs (2013-10-12 10:03:20 GMT)
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By the way, just as a point of interest, the future subjunctive (3rd p. sing.) of "fincar" in modern Portuguese is also "fincar".
Peer comment(s):

agree Beatriz Ramírez de Haro
3 hrs
Gracias, Bea :) ¡Saludos!
agree Wendy Petzall
10 hrs
Thanks, Wendy :)
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks above all to Bea, wish I could give you the points."
39 mins

to whom it would attach after you

An archaic form of "fijar" perhaps? To affix, establish, set, build, attribute to, attach... Some interesting Lat Am contemporary usages in Linguee below.

I would hazard: "to your legitimate male offspring to whom it would attach after you for [the duration] of his days"
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48 mins

from kneeling before you

I am thinking this might be "hincar" deciphered by the medieval f to h shift
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2 hrs
Spanish term (edited): que de vos fincar, e a cabo de sus días

who will cultivate/manage it on your behalf (during his lifetime)

OR

who will inherit the use of it for the duration of his lifetime...., (at the end of which it will pass back to us)

just a couple of (possibly feasible, but wildly different?) guesses, I'm afraid, drawn from the context provided...
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2 hrs

to whom it would be conveyed/to whom it would devolve

This is my take on it - that the rights would devolve to his son (should he have one) for the son's lifetime.
Examples:www.docstoc.com/.../COURT-OF-APPEAL-FOR-TH...
09/11/2009 - If Townsley could discuss with his mother the issues of what property would be conveyed, to whom it would devolve after her death, and who ...boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.../mb.ashx‎
11/03/2000 - Location: Pahaquarry Tp.- Property conveyed to his son, Abraham, now deceased which is to be divided among the heirs of James and ...
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Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

fincar

fincar.
(Del lat. vulg. *figicāre 'fijar', con -n-, quizá por infl. de fingĕre 'moldear', 'fingir').
1. tr. ant. hincar (‖ introducir o clavar algo en otra cosa).
2. intr. Adquirir fincas. U. t. c. prnl.
3. intr. ant. quedar.
Real Academia Española © Todos los derechos reservados

Según la tercera acepción (arcaica) sería literalmente "el hijo que quede detrás de vos" (el hijo que dejéis / vuestro hijo)
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Maria Alvarez
1 hr
Gracias María Lila - Bea
agree Apolonia Dermit : http://www3.udg.edu/fllff/zifar/fincado.htm
1 hr
Gracias, Apolonia - Bea
agree Charles Davis
2 hrs
Gracias, Charles- Bea
agree Noni Gilbert Riley
3 hrs
Gracias, Noni - Bea
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