| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | Fighting scammers: proposing a simple trick? Thread poster: BabelOn-line
|
|---|
BabelOn-line
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:53
English to French
+ ...
Morning, Prozians,
I am incandescent with anger re: scam attempts. Linguist spend years building up their good name and someone steals it. This is revolting.
Last job post we placed on Proz for a Eng-->Jap project elicited more scam responses than genuine CVs. We have strong reasons to believe one of the scammers even had a Proz profile (this is more than a strong suspicion and we have of course informed Proz support team about it, this very morning).
... See more Morning, Prozians,
I am incandescent with anger re: scam attempts. Linguist spend years building up their good name and someone steals it. This is revolting.
Last job post we placed on Proz for a Eng-->Jap project elicited more scam responses than genuine CVs. We have strong reasons to believe one of the scammers even had a Proz profile (this is more than a strong suspicion and we have of course informed Proz support team about it, this very morning).
This is what we consider doing for all our future Proz job posts:
- At the very beginning of all new post, we will write that we will not answer any offer from non-Proz members (and will actually disregard any offers from non-Proz registered users)
- In the same way, we will request a Skype contact (to be conducted in the target language).
- We will require a phone number in the country where the freelancer is registered.
- We will indicate that we do not accept any request for payment in advance
What do you think? Any refinements we could add? Any problem you could think of?
We feel it is fair:
- if for any reasons a bona fide freelancer cannot satisfy the above conditions, at least they do not waste any time answering our post
- if you are a scammer, you know there is a short interview on Skype/phone coming up and that there will be no hope of advance payment.
If this works, it could become a boilerplate announcement for agencies posting jobs on Proz.
Cheers! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Thayenga 
Germany
Local time: 07:53
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
This is a good way to fight scammers/compromised business brochures. If everybody, outsourcers and freelancers alike, did this, then this would make it more difficult for scammers.
| | | | Kevin Fulton
United States
Local time: 01:53
German to English
| Due diligence works both ways | Oct 31, 2018 |
Translators are not the only ones being scammed in this business.
I applaud your endeavor to defend against scammers. Potential outsourcers need to protect themselves and should implement means such as yours.
| | | | Tony M
France
Local time: 07:53
Member
French to English
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Good ideas, just some comments | Oct 31, 2018 |
BabelOn-line wrote:
This is what we consider doing for all our future Proz job posts:
...
- In the same way, we will request a Skype contact (to be conducted in the target language).
...
I don't think you should make this a sine qua non... — there are some people who for perfectly legitimate reasons are unable to use Skype; but "Skype OR a phone number" would seem to me to achieve the same end.
- We will require a phone number in the country where the freelancer is registered.
...
- We will indicate that we do not accept any request for payment in advance
I don't think this is a good policy; it is not unreasonable for a genuine service provider working for a new company for the first time to request payment up-front — OK, maybe not in advance, but upon delivery. In the case of very large orders (where stage payments are going to be applied over a period of time), I do request a percentage down-payment upon placing the order.
I think this is a point possibly better clarified after an initial contact, when the service provider has had a chance to state their business terms.
Since it is well known that quite a number of scammers operate via ProZ.com, and indeed, some are even paying members, I feel ProZ.com should take more responsibility for doing a minimum of "due diligence" to weed out so many of these before they even get to the point of contacting other members. In particualr, reinforcing the "verified ID" system, and making it OBLIGATORY, would seem to me a good first step.
| | |
|
|
|
Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 06:53
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| A suggestion | Oct 31, 2018 |
BabelOn-line wrote:
I am incandescent with anger re: scam attempts. Linguist spend years building up their good name and someone steals it. This is revolting.
I'm sure we all agree with that sentiment! It's nice to hear an agency saying it.
- At the very beginning of all new post, we will write that we will not answer any offer from non-Proz members (and will actually disregard any offers from non-Proz registered users)
- In the same way, we will request a Skype contact (to be conducted in the target language).
- We will require a phone number in the country where the freelancer is registered.
- We will indicate that we do not accept any request for payment in advance
What do you think? Any refinements we could add? Any problem you could think of?
I for one am not at all happy with client requests for Skype or phone calls unless they're already regular clients and they have a definite need, in which case we arrange a time. Otherwise, I might be considering half a dozen possible formulations that I haven't written down, and a call will immediately empty my mind of all of them, even if I try to ignore it. And I certainly don't expect my clients to "interview" me as an employer would. I also know of nomads who roam Europe and don't necessarily use a mobile phone with a local number. That really isn't a problem within Europe so it's unfair to penalise them for it.
If you're only accepting quotes from translators with ProZ.com profiles, perhaps it would be simplest to contact them through that profile, rather than using the email address they've used. You'll be using the hidden email address that's registered with ProZ.com, so you're guaranteed to be speaking to the profile holder. I've done that on a couple of occasions when I've been contacted by email by someone who claims to have a ProZ.com account. One time I was almost certain it was a case of stolen identity, but it was just one of crossed wires.
| | | | BabelOn-line
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:53
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I feel the bare minimum is a phone number in the country. it is simple and that would make scammers life really complicated.
I know that not everyone is happy with Skype, but this is a really good way to check "who you are really dealing with". The few times when we had a doubt about a translator, the mere prospect of a quick Skype interview quickly sorted things.
The "no payment in advance" is IMOH non negotiable. This gives the agency a few hours or a couple of da... See more I feel the bare minimum is a phone number in the country. it is simple and that would make scammers life really complicated.
I know that not everyone is happy with Skype, but this is a really good way to check "who you are really dealing with". The few times when we had a doubt about a translator, the mere prospect of a quick Skype interview quickly sorted things.
The "no payment in advance" is IMOH non negotiable. This gives the agency a few hours or a couple of days to check that the translation was carried out to acceptable standards - and is not something straight out of Google Translate, say. We try to pay linguists as soon as we can, usually way before our 30 days terms, but unless there was some very good reason for it, we would never pay in advance.
This is where the Proz Blueboard is a great resources and provides symmetrical information to all parties: if you have a good, long established blueboard, you do not want to damage it and you therefore pay your bills fair and square. If you are a freelancer and a job post comes from a company with a poor blueboard record, yes, by all mean, ask for part payment or payment in advance. Or skip the offer.
in the last 15 years, I have tried many time to alert Google about @gmail.com adresses belonging to scammers – as in, proven, demonstrated scammers. Their feeble excuse is that their hands are tied by their confidentiality policy.
I am convinced that Proz cannot do the same. They needs to vet freelancers and agencies far more stringently. Check IP addresses upon registration, see if it matches!
Times they are a changin'.
[Edited at 2018-10-31 16:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marjolein Snippe
Netherlands
Local time: 07:53
Member (2012)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| phone OR skype | Oct 31, 2018 |
I agree with Tony - I would request a telephone number or skype ID. I have not installed skype on my work computer because I do not want to be interrupted while working. My clients do have my telephone number so they can contact me.
| | | | BabelOn-line
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:53
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
We were not thinking about any in depth, long-ish interview of freelancers here. Just the 5 minutes casual chat. Does not even need the camera on (I personally object to anyone seeing my face before I have my 5th coffee of the day).
Linguist roaming about? Not a problem. But surely they have a mobile phone (with a number from their permanent address country) with them.
As an agency, dealing with a new linguist who is not recommended to us and who does not want to have a... See more We were not thinking about any in depth, long-ish interview of freelancers here. Just the 5 minutes casual chat. Does not even need the camera on (I personally object to anyone seeing my face before I have my 5th coffee of the day).
Linguist roaming about? Not a problem. But surely they have a mobile phone (with a number from their permanent address country) with them.
As an agency, dealing with a new linguist who is not recommended to us and who does not want to have a short chat (Skype or mobile) is a problem. What would we tell our clients if we fall for a fake CV? "Sorry, we did not even bother doing minimal due diligence and sent you a half baked translation"?
Again, our last job post was answered by a Proz user who we are 99.99% sure is a scammer. Using the Proz system end to end to communicate with freelancers only works if Proz becomes a safe haven – where all linguists AND agencies are carefully vetted.
We could always Google linguists and not use Proz, but that would only point to the linguist who have the best SEO, not necessarily the specialists we are after. And I do not think most freelance Prozian would like agencies to do disregard Proz. ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
| Request a Skype contact? | Oct 31, 2018 |
BabelOn-line wrote:
- In the same way, we will request a Skype contact (to be conducted in the target language).
More and more people are leaving off Skype for more privacy compliant apps, such as Telegram. Maybe you should consider other options, too.
| | | | BabelOn-line
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:53
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I hate Skype with a vengeance, but it is still the "go to" app for video chat. And that is indeed the only reason we use it. Thanks for telling us about Telegram, sounds interesting, we will check it out.
Point of saying "we will require a Skype call" is to deter scammers. From the reactions above, we can probably do with a simple mobile call, with a mobile number originating from the country where the freelancer is registered.
As you guessed, it is more a question of... See more I hate Skype with a vengeance, but it is still the "go to" app for video chat. And that is indeed the only reason we use it. Thanks for telling us about Telegram, sounds interesting, we will check it out.
Point of saying "we will require a Skype call" is to deter scammers. From the reactions above, we can probably do with a simple mobile call, with a mobile number originating from the country where the freelancer is registered.
As you guessed, it is more a question of telling potential scammers "you can try, but be aware that we will not make things simple for you. No advance payment. We will vet you and will not trust a CV and a Proz membership. We will want to hear your voice."
I fully understand what linguists write above (I am a translator myself): Skype is a distraction. On the other hand, days when you could trust someone based on a CV and an email are gone. As agency, we do regret it, but we will need new rules of engagement. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Skype and more | Oct 31, 2018 |
You will probably exclude some legitimate translators out if you insist on Skype.
I have a separate Skype account for business because if I give my personal Skype account to outsourcers, some take it as an open invitation to contact me at all hours, as if I were running a 24/7 hotline.
On Windows 7, it was possible to be logged in to both Skype accounts simultaneously.
However, I found that Skype was repeatedly consuming a lot of system resources while appa... See more You will probably exclude some legitimate translators out if you insist on Skype.
I have a separate Skype account for business because if I give my personal Skype account to outsourcers, some take it as an open invitation to contact me at all hours, as if I were running a 24/7 hotline.
On Windows 7, it was possible to be logged in to both Skype accounts simultaneously.
However, I found that Skype was repeatedly consuming a lot of system resources while apparently doing nothing, slowing down whatever I was doing, so I ended up not starting Skype at all. I rarely use it any more. Messenger is more reliable and not such a resource hog as Skype can be.
On Windows 10, the Skype app, although its resource consumption is not a problem, doesn’t allow being logged in to two accounts simultaneously. One has to download the classic Skype program to do that.
Others have mentioned that they don’t want to be interrupted by Skype calls or messages. I agree.
Audio quality is not always very good on Skype. It can make the translator sound confused if they have to keep asking the outsourcer to repeat what they said, or if they have to keep pausing to try to decipher the audio.
I generally object to video, as I’m working at home.
In other words, you can achieve a much better result with a phone call, which is also generally much less complicated. But it is possible to log in to the Skype account I use for business for an appointment. I just won't read any messages sent to me there.
I would have thought that you can generally trust those with Certified Pro status a bit more.
It all just illustrates that finding reliable business partners isn’t easy for anyone. ▲ Collapse
| | | | DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
| ID confirmation | Oct 31, 2018 |
Indeed, a cornerstone of any fraud is abusing of confidence, so a telephone or a skype (let alone a personal) contact reveals the parties, while a small-talk is enough to see what kind of person and specialist one is.
As far as it's rather easy to fake or crack one's social page, it's no guarantee, yet I prefer Viber linked to a phone SIM; double-check, if any doubts.
However, even simple measures like supervising or eliminating so called "not registered" ... See more Indeed, a cornerstone of any fraud is abusing of confidence, so a telephone or a skype (let alone a personal) contact reveals the parties, while a small-talk is enough to see what kind of person and specialist one is.
As far as it's rather easy to fake or crack one's social page, it's no guarantee, yet I prefer Viber linked to a phone SIM; double-check, if any doubts.
However, even simple measures like supervising or eliminating so called "not registered" (why?) and "not logged in" (why?) from biz offers will surely do for a start: trust is a mutual consent!
[Edited at 2018-10-31 17:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
BabelOn-line
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:53
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
It sounds that Skype managed to create a nice feeling of unanimity amongst linguists - as in: everybody hates it.
Problem remains. We need to have a simple, generally accepted way to establish people's identity.
Skype or disclosing your mobile number is unpleasant, we agree, but from the point of view of an agency, I cannot see how we can avoid it. As far as our company is concerned, we will have to check.
If someone could come up with less intrusive solu... See more It sounds that Skype managed to create a nice feeling of unanimity amongst linguists - as in: everybody hates it.
Problem remains. We need to have a simple, generally accepted way to establish people's identity.
Skype or disclosing your mobile number is unpleasant, we agree, but from the point of view of an agency, I cannot see how we can avoid it. As far as our company is concerned, we will have to check.
If someone could come up with less intrusive solutions that are agreeable to all parties and secure, that would be great.
I am all in favour of trusting a secure, end to end Proz environment, but apparently (see Tony's post), some scammers could now be hiding amongst paid members. So unless Proz starts a massive ID verification campaign - rather than the opt-in ID verification program... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 06:53
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| I just don't want interruptions from people who may well not become clients | Oct 31, 2018 |
BabelOn-line wrote:
Linguist roaming about? Not a problem. But surely they have a mobile phone (with a number from their permanent address country) with them.
No, they don't always. I've found several Brits living locally in the Canary Islands who only have UK mobile phone numbers, and some have been resident here for several years. I think they're daft, but that doesn't make them scammers. And I know that some nomads do the opposite - using a local number to keep things easy although they can't/don't re-register their business every time they move.
What would we tell our clients if we fall for a fake CV? "Sorry, we did not even bother doing minimal due diligence and sent you a half baked translation"?
Again, our last job post was answered by a Proz user who we are 99.99% sure is a scammer. Using the Proz system end to end to communicate with freelancers only works if Proz becomes a safe haven – where all linguists AND agencies are carefully vetted.
But presumably that linguist wrote you an email and you replied to that email. Certainly that can lack due diligence. And end-to-end communication via ProZ.com would be a pain, I agree. But I was suggesting that you ask quoters for a link to their profile and then send a private email to that (unknown to everybody) email address. If the same translator replies, then you've checked them out and can communicate any way you like from then. If the translator replies to the profile email saying "Who are you?" then you know you were dealing with a scammer.
| | | | BabelOn-line
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:53
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Hi Sheila,
I am not sure we are on the same wavelength.
In the case I am describing, the scammer (OK, say we are 99.9% sure he/she was a scammer) had it's own CV (a fake one, we tested parts of the text on google and it only pointed back to Proz), had a one year old full Proz profile and his email address was not listed on any scammers site. We checked out a small technical point as we were not 100% happy and had the time to do so: that showed us something was very wro... See more Hi Sheila,
I am not sure we are on the same wavelength.
In the case I am describing, the scammer (OK, say we are 99.9% sure he/she was a scammer) had it's own CV (a fake one, we tested parts of the text on google and it only pointed back to Proz), had a one year old full Proz profile and his email address was not listed on any scammers site. We checked out a small technical point as we were not 100% happy and had the time to do so: that showed us something was very wrong. Sorry, cannot disclose what it is here - just in case scammers read this.
As it takes the best part of 2 minutes to open a new gmail address, an address is of course hardly any proof that you deal with a bona fide or not. You can scam people for a while using a given email address; when the address is burnt, you just change it.
If we do not contact this person directly by phone or skype and have to rely on the email address given on Proz, how can we verify who we are dealing with?
As for British linguists who have lived in the Canary island for some time but who did not think it worth to get a local phone number, that's their decision entirely.
When you check out a company, due diligence starts with finding the registered office address. Anything that substantiates things.
Some freelance linguists may think otherwise, but we are all one-woman/man-bands nowadays. With the current climate of suspicion, I believe most agencies will simply go to the linguist whose profile checks out immediately (e.g. have their own website and email from their domain names, can be contacted in the country where they are registered) – and yes, they may well miss out on great talents, but agencies are businesses and as far as I see, this is how most businesses operate. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Fighting scammers: proposing a simple trick? | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
| | Trados Studio 2022 Freelance | The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.
Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop
and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
