| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Is Kudoz good for translation? Thread poster: agapzn
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| How good Kudoz is depends on several factors | Jul 13, 2007 |
If you are working in a field you know and really know the source and target languages well, then for most pairs, using the Kudoz glossary is a great place to get ideas or confirm (or not) ones you have.
If you are weak in any of the above areas (field/target/source languages), then relying on the Kudoz glossary can be a bit of a minefield.
As Enrique says, answers chosen are not necessarily 'right'. They are what Asker found 'most... See more If you are working in a field you know and really know the source and target languages well, then for most pairs, using the Kudoz glossary is a great place to get ideas or confirm (or not) ones you have.
If you are weak in any of the above areas (field/target/source languages), then relying on the Kudoz glossary can be a bit of a minefield.
As Enrique says, answers chosen are not necessarily 'right'. They are what Asker found 'most helpful', ie a subjective choice. Rule 3.7 ( http://www.proz.com/?sp=siterules&mode=show&category=kudoz_answ ) clearly states that an answer chosen cannot be questioned in any way so no peer comments can be made afterwards. And peer agrees/comments can be a guide but are also not a 100% reliable basis for a decision.
Fortunately however, all answers actually posted remain on the Kudoz question page and it's not unusual to find the very answer you need amongst those not chosen by Asker.
[Edited at 2007-07-13 08:32] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | To writeaway: | Jul 13, 2007 |
That's not actually true - Rule 3.7 states:
"Commentary on askers or answerers and their postings or decisions to post is not allowed. Comments or insinuations concerning an answerer's or asker's experience or profile, his/her decision to post a certain question or answer, grade or close a question in a certain way, make a certain glossary entry, etc., are strictly prohibited..."
It does *not* say that you can't comment ON THE ANSWER ITSELF after it has been chosen. And in fact, to my knowledge the moderators encourage people to comment on glossary entries, with the aim of improving the resource for everyone.
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 08:00
German to English
+ ...
| Yes - if it's "helpful" | Jul 13, 2007 |
Enrique wrote:
KudoZ questions are about help. Askers are requested to select the answers they find most useful, not the right ones.
Enrique
I agree 100%.
Unfortunately, the "Please select the most helpful answer" prompt is often overlooked by Askers. But it makes perfect sense.
I've posted a couple of questions in the past where I basically wanted to know if the solution I already had was applicable/"correct". Some colleagues simply posted an answer replicating my solution, just saying "yes" and adding a weblink where the term appears - despite me specifically a) saying I'd already done my Googling research etc. b) asking for personal insights/opinion and/or links that actually explain the term. Such answers are of little or no help.
On one such occasion, I awarded the points to a colleague who disagreed with my solution (which I nevertheless used) and with whom I in fact got into an argument about politics! But she provided a lot of links and her own arguments that - even if they didn't convince me - helped to give me a wider perspective of the question, which I really appreciated.
Enrique wrote:
The glossary is for reference. When you use it you have access to all the answers and the peer comments, and you make your own judgement.
Enrique
Absolutely. Unfortunately, there is a lot of garbage in the glossary - and less experienced colleagues might automatically use a selected answer even if it's "wrong".
On the other hand, I've often searched the glossaries and found great answers that for some reason were not selected at the time. This is why I always ask colleagues who close questions too early (often after just an hour or two) to re-open them for the benefit of us all - yes, even when my own answer has been selected.
| | | | | Flawed closing comments | Jul 13, 2007 |
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
It does *not* say that you can't comment ON THE ANSWER ITSELF after it has been chosen.
The relevant words of Rule 3.7 are: "Comments or insinuations concerning an … asker's … decision to … grade or close a question in a certain way, make a certain glossary entry, etc., are strictly prohibited (… posted publicly…)."
My reading of this is that any post-grading comment whatsoever could lead to disciplinary action against the answerer/commentator. If that is not the intention of the rule, then the wording needs to be changed.
Answers posted are subject to robust scrutiny and public disagreement. Why should the (often flawed) closing comments posted by askers be exempt?
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| Marie-Hélène is right | Jul 13, 2007 |
Andrew Swift wrote: Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
It does *not* say that you can't comment ON THE ANSWER ITSELF after it has been chosen.
The relevant words of Rule 3.7 are: "Comments or insinuations concerning an … asker's … decision to … grade or close a question in a certain way, make a certain glossary entry, etc., are strictly prohibited (… posted publicly…)." My reading of this is that any post-grading comment whatsoever could lead to disciplinary action against the answerer/commentator. If that is not the intention of the rule, then the wording needs to be changed. Answers posted are subject to robust scrutiny and public disagreement. Why should the (often flawed) closing comments posted by askers be exempt?
A peer comment is a linguistic comment on an answer.
If you state your agreement or linguistically-based disagreement with an answer then you are fully in line with site rules.
On the other hand, if you state your disagreement with the asker's decision of selecting a given answer, then you are not in line with KudoZ rule 3.7.
Regards,
Enrique
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 08:00
German to English
+ ...
Marie's point is - like the rule - ambiguous
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
It does *not* say that you can't comment ON THE ANSWER ITSELF after it has been chosen.
I'm not 100% sure if you mean post-grading comments directly addressed to the Answerer or to comments to the Asker regarding their choice. It would seem the former is the case.
Andrew Swift wrote:
Why should the (often flawed) closing comments posted by askers be exempt?
I think this is a perfectly valid question. There are often clear cases where an Asker has selected an Answer that is simply wrong. I have sometimes - often on questions in which I was not involved in until then - queried the Asker's choice, urging them to rethink their selection. What's wrong with that?
Obviously such queries/doubts should ideally be phrased diplomatically - an art in which I admittedly am not exactly a master.
I have on some occasions added a Disagree (with explanation) to a formal glossary entry - but not all questions are entered in the glossary. Surely there should be room/scope for adding our thoughts to what we consider a poor choice of answer? What harm can that do?
| | | | | Right of reply | Jul 14, 2007 |
Thank you for the clarification, Enrique. If I have understood correctly, it continues to be permissible to state your agreement or linguistically-based disagreement with an answer but it is a breach of KudoZ Rule 3.7 to state your disagreement with the asker's decision to select a given answer, *even if that disagreement is linguistically based.* (my addition).
To return to the title of this thread ("Is Kudoz good for translation?"), I cannot believe that it makes sense to abdicate... See more Thank you for the clarification, Enrique. If I have understood correctly, it continues to be permissible to state your agreement or linguistically-based disagreement with an answer but it is a breach of KudoZ Rule 3.7 to state your disagreement with the asker's decision to select a given answer, *even if that disagreement is linguistically based.* (my addition).
To return to the title of this thread ("Is Kudoz good for translation?"), I cannot believe that it makes sense to abdicate responsibility for the compilation of the Glossary to the very people who, as John Cutler pointed out above, 'didn't know the answer in the first place'. Although most askers simply click on the award-4-points button (at least, those who don’t leave it to the robot), some like to close with a grandiose review of answers submitted, often making tenuous assertions about answers they have chosen to reject. The newly formulated Rule 3.7 effectively deprives answerers of the right of reply. ▲ Collapse
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Andrew Swift wrote:
The newly formulated Rule 3.7 effectively deprives answerers of the right of reply.
Hi Andrew, I don't know exactly what you mean by "newly formulated". The current version of rule 3.7 was published in May 2006.
Cheers,
Enrique
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Gina W
United States
Local time: 02:00
Member (2003)
French to English
| Regarding "bullies" | Jul 15, 2007 |
Mats Wiman wrote:
They are taken care of, I can assure you. Many have even been expelled from the site.
Mats, I agree that the ProZ.com Staff and moderators do what they can, but there are certain people who can still manage to be "bullies", because they don't technically break the KudoZ rules, but their presence is just so dominating that it's beyond ridiculous. One such person who seemed to follow me around the site - s/he must have had me "flagged", so that each and every question that I dared to post had to be coupled with slightly snide feedback from this person. As a result, I don't really use KudoZ anymore. That is really a shame, honestly - but I do not blame the moderators or staff, as I believe that they sincerely wanted to help me with the situation but unfortunately there was not much they could really do.
I'll take a look at your article as it should be interesting.:)
[Edited at 2007-07-15 07:55]
| | | | Gina W
United States
Local time: 02:00
Member (2003)
French to English
| You are correct, Marie-Helene | Jul 15, 2007 |
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote: That's not actually true - Rule 3.7 states: "Commentary on askers or answerers and their postings or decisions to post is not allowed. Comments or insinuations concerning an answerer's or asker's experience or profile, his/her decision to post a certain question or answer, grade or close a question in a certain way, make a certain glossary entry, etc., are strictly prohibited..." It does *not* say that you can't comment ON THE ANSWER ITSELF after it has been chosen. And in fact, to my knowledge the moderators encourage people to comment on glossary entries, with the aim of improving the resource for everyone.
Basically, everyone is encouraged to participate and give linguistic input. However, once a person has given such input, that person should absolutely not give anyone a hard time, or continue to belabor the point ad nauseum. It's annoying, usually condescending, and not constructive in the least. And this should include moderators as well - if a moderator in a language pair disagrees, that moderator is welcome to nicely state so, focusing on linguistic input ONLY, but s/he should certainly not continue to go on regarding a CLOSED question. That is rude, shows little respect for the asker, and is really not a moderator's place besides. I saw this happen once and was floored at the unprofessionalism and downright rudeness of that moderator. That's a total abuse of power as a moderator.
However, fortunately such a situation is more the very occasional exception, and is certainly not the rule. It's just that it doesn't take many individuals who push things way too far to end up pushing someone right off the site who doesn't deserve that.
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