| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Suggesting a different kind of ProZ.com membership Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer
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Bernhard Sulzer 
United States
Local time: 02:23
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Nicole Schnell wrote: Just pay for your membership. As a matter of fact - pay up and fork over the $300 per year for corporate. That's when the direct clients will contact you. Honestly - what do you want? Senior status for free? You are not retired yet. C'mon. 
Thanks Nicole.
Encouraging words are always appreciated.
As I said, I decided to pay (for now) because it's the only way to keep my ranking.
PS: I feel it's not so much a simple money issue. And I don't want things for free. But I explained that before.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2012-01-09 13:27 GMT]
| | | | | New kinds of membership will most likely offer more, rather than less | Jan 9, 2012 |
Hello all,
ProZ.com full membership is access to a complete suite of services. Of those services, exposure to potential clients via the directory (and other boosts in visibility on the site and on the web) is among the most important, and that which stands to provide the greatest direct return on investment (though different members will give different reasons or services as their main reasons for maintaining membership). ProZ.com is currently ranked among the top 3,200 sites on the... See more Hello all,
ProZ.com full membership is access to a complete suite of services. Of those services, exposure to potential clients via the directory (and other boosts in visibility on the site and on the web) is among the most important, and that which stands to provide the greatest direct return on investment (though different members will give different reasons or services as their main reasons for maintaining membership). ProZ.com is currently ranked among the top 3,200 sites on the web-- this is among all sites, not just sites offering services to translators. To give you an idea, Bernhard, your personal business website is currently ranked at 18,635,319. Other portals dedicated to providing services to translators rank upwards of 10,000. ProZ.com's ranking, visibility and exposure get passed on to ProZ.com members. What price would you put on that kind of exposure? Would the return on investment of meeting just one new client not cover the membership fee (and then some)?
If I had to set a price for each individual service ProZ.com offers, "break out" each service and put a fee on it based on its "value", it would probably be end up being a higher fee per service than the actual membership fee represents, rather than a fraction of the full membership fee.
New kinds of membership are not out of the question, of course. But these will most likely be kinds of membership which offer more, rather than less.
Best regards,
Jared ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 23:23
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Also: It was about time that you got a face. | Jan 9, 2012 |
Congrats to your profile pic! Rrrrrrrr.... )
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 02:23
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | minimum requirements for job posters | Jan 9, 2012 |
Jared wrote:
Hello all,
ProZ.com full membership is access to a complete suite of services. Of those services, exposure to potential clients via the directory (and other boosts in visibility on the site and on the web) is among the most important, and that which stands to provide the greatest direct return on investment (though different members will give different reasons or services as their main reasons for maintaining membership). ProZ.com is currently ranked among the top 3,200 sites on the web-- this is among all sites, not just sites offering services to translators. To give you an idea, Bernhard, your personal business website is currently ranked at 18,635,319. Other portals dedicated to providing services to translators rank upwards of 10,000. ProZ.com's ranking, visibility and exposure get passed on to ProZ.com members. What price would you put on that kind of exposure? Would the return on investment of meeting just one new client not cover the membership fee (and then some)?
If I had to set a price for each individual service ProZ.com offers, "break out" each service and put a fee on it based on its "value", it would probably be end up being a higher fee per service than the actual membership fee represents, rather than a fraction of the full membership fee.
New kinds of membership are not out of the question, of course. But these will most likely be kinds of membership which offer more, rather than less.
Best regards,
Jared
Hello, Jared.
Thanks for your comments. There are indeed many good things that give a full member lots of advantages and I don't dispute those, I am thankful for them.
What I am concerned about is the way the job board can potentially influence our business with regard to increasingly lower fees paid to translators, if left completely to the whim of outsourcers. Is it not possible to offer outsourcers some sort of premium membership at proz.com and ask them, in return, to guarantee that the prices they pay are at least in line with a minimum rate posted on proz.com? In the U.S, we have something called a minimum wage, and anything below it is illegal.
Unfortunately, many jobs posted on proz.com are given to translators at the "best" (read: lowest) rates, as requested by the job posters (frequent request by outsourcers when they post jobs: Send us your CV and "best" rate) only because there are so many translators who are willing to do it for a fraction of the adequate rate. That is a development spiraling downward, unchecked, and it hasn't stopped yet.
Even more importantly for us translators, responsible outsourcers should have their premium status displayed when posting jobs. Then I would have less of a problem paying for that service. Now, the blueboard shows their rating, yes, but that rating often says nothing about how fairly or unfairly they pay.
I am not saying that's an easy task, but I believe something should be done to lift the job board out of its current state. Nobody should be allowed to pay for a job posted here that pays less than a certain minimum rate. Otherwise, I would have a major problem supporting this feature or any kind of membership at proz.com.
Best regards,
Bernhard
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| Regarding posted jobs and setting rates | Jan 9, 2012 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
What I am concerned about is the way the job board can potentially influence our business with regard to increasingly lower fees paid to translators, if left completely to the whim of outsourcers.
Posted jobs may represent different market segments, sure. I would not say that posted jobs are completely at the whim of outsourcers. It is up to each professional who chooses to quote on a posted job, or respond to direct contact through the directory or their profile, etc., to set their own rate for the work required. ProZ.com will not set this rate for you, though efforts have been made to provide information which can assist a language professional in arriving at the rates they desire, http://wiki.proz.com/wiki/index.php/Determining_your_rates_and_fees_as_a_translator for example. Offering recognition to outsourcers who consistently provide projects above a certain rate is not a bad idea, but deciding who decides what that rate is, is probably another matter (and probably beyond the scope of this thread).
Jared
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 02:23
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | further discussion of the idea by proz.com staff | Jan 9, 2012 |
Jared wrote:
... Offering recognition to outsourcers who consistently provide projects above a certain rate is not a bad idea, but deciding who decides what that rate is, is probably another matter (and probably beyond the scope of this thread).
Jared
Hi again, Jared.
I am encouraged by your words but do you see this idea being further discussed by Proz.com owner and staff?
One way to go about it would be to tie outsourcer recognition to the average translator rates already posted by proz.com But that's just one suggestion that also would need to be examined.
The other task would be to further educate translators about the pitfalls of accepting low-paying jobs. As you rightly stated, they are the ones accepting these rates but do it often because they think they can't get a job/enough jobs otherwise.
Bernhard
| | | | Ildiko Santana
United States
Local time: 23:23
Member (2002)
Hungarian to English
+ ...
MODERATOR | posted jobs, setting rates, and paid membership | Jan 9, 2012 |
(Bernhard) What I am concerned about is the way the job board can potentially influence our business with regard to increasingly lower fees paid to translators, if left completely to the whim of outsourcers.
....
(Jared) ProZ.com will not set this rate for you, though efforts have been made to provide information which can assist a language professional in arriving at the rates they desire....
Dear Bernhard,
I am glad your communication with ProZ staff is underway and I hope you don't mind me interjecting one last thought in the subject of rates, job board, and paid or not paid membership: I have been in this business for 19 years now and I am (both paying and non-paying) member in half a dozen professional organizations. As far as I know, Proz.com is the only outfit that offers its users / members a means to even have a remote idea of the rates of registered outsourcers and providers. In all the other associations, we haven't the faintest idea what goes on as far as the rates are concerned; for instance, I would not be able to tell you who charges what under the ATA umbrella; it is entirely up to the agencies and the members, and this information stays between outsourcer and provider, period. I can't say I agree with some of the insulting rates offered by agencies and translators alike but I fail to see how that problem has anything to do with ProZ membership. When deciding whether to join a particular association, the question of going rates never even becomes an issue and I don't see why it should in the case of ProZ.com. There are ways to fight against horrendous rates and educate (if not eliminate) "bad apples" but I don't believe that ProZ should be made accountable for such battle. I believe that we, translators, always have the option to refuse working for peanuts, and the job board simply allows us to see what goes on but is definitely not setting the rates, neither great nor pathetic, for us.
| | | | Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 02:23
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | raising the image | Jan 10, 2012 |
Ildiko Santana wrote:
... I would not be able to tell you who charges what under the ATA umbrella; it is entirely up to the agencies and the members, and this information stays between outsourcer and provider, period. I can't say I agree with some of the insulting rates offered by agencies and translators alike but I fail to see how that problem has anything to do with ProZ membership.
]
Sorry if this is a bit long. It's late and I hope some of what I wrote does make sense.
I can't speak for the ATA, but as far as the jobs are concerned that outsources post here at proz.com, I dare say these outsourcers never have to worry about finding translators who will accept the absolutely low rates these companies have set out to pay. There is no way to stop the gigantic influx of translators who stand ready to bid for the lowest price and take anybody else's place to work for atrocious rates. Many of them will not even feel that they are being exploited.
An example here:
http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/203230-am_i_being_exploited.html
This doesn't seem to have much to do with proz.com membership or the situation of a professional translator (and as you indicate you don't have any problems finding good-paying clients/jobs - but do you get a lot from here?).
I believe the opportunity for outsourcers to get the cheapest translators (from a gigantic and ever increasing pool of willing bidders) has, IMO, contributed to declining rates in general, if only on the proz.com job board. We are in difficult economic times, and to think that it will become easier to find good-paying translation jobs seems at least unlikely. We don't need to encourage the decline of rates.
I believe this could not only have a big impact on my business in the (not so) long run, but also on my attitude towards full membership (it almost did, this time around).
The translator who bids on proz.com makes it possible for these outsourcers to make a good profit. That profit should be shared fairly, but I don't believe it is. There is no reason for the outsourcer to do that.
So here I am, listed in the directory. An agency has two choices: it can look through the directory for higher-paid and qualified translators (and there are hopefully a few that do), but the temptation is great to simply post the job and select the translator that seems to have adequate knowledge but is also willing to work for the "best" rate. So, I pay the same as the bidder for my membership but it's most likely the bidder who will get the job. Clearly, by the time it's posted here, I can't and will not accept it. That doesn't bother the end client, she/he doesn't care who actually carries out the translation as long as it meets the expected quality. (There is a possibility that the end client refuses it for poor quality, but that's a long shot, if there are translators capable of doing it actually do it for the low rate).
Now, I have various sources of income but I don't see the point in paying the same amount year after year with more and more offers lost to the low bidder. Not that I want the low-bidding job, don't get me wrong. I would have wanted it, if it had come from a professional agency that pays an adequate price. But they just lost the job to a lower-bidding agency who gives it to the lowest bidding translator.
Maybe you think I see it all too negatively, but the translation market is definitely changing. I have renewed my full membership because I do believe it helps my image if a "good" client comes across it. I can tell you there are plenty of colleagues who think otherwise.
They believe many good outsourcers no longer look at Proz.com for quality translators.
I believe minimum standards that we can all agree on are absolutely necessary, especially here at Proz.com. If there are no minimum standards, then the scale will first tilt towards a bottomless pit before it hopefully swings back.
It's called Proz.com, not Low Bidders and Proz.com
I do believe it's in the interest of both, Proz.com and professional translators, to raise the image. The job board does not raise the image. It does not help stabilize rates.
So I think there are reasons why we should discuss these things - they affect or will affect us all, at least I think so.
It is often said that the job board cannot be regulated but I believe it should, and the "recognition" of good outsourcer citizens is one way to go. I suggested this earlier and Jared did agree it's not a bad idea. The specifics are difficult to define but we should try.
Ildiko Santana wrote:
When deciding whether to join a particular association, the question of going rates never even becomes an issue and I don't see why it should in the case of ProZ.com. There are ways to fight against horrendous rates and educate (if not eliminate) "bad apples" but I don't believe that ProZ should be made accountable for such battle. I believe that we, translators, always have the option to refuse working for peanuts, and the job board simply allows us to see what goes on but is definitely not setting the rates, neither great nor pathetic, for us.
As I mentioned before, without translators, there would be no Proz.com.
I like to say that, with Proz.com, I enhance my professional career, and with my contributions here, I enhance Proz.com. I hope that's true, based on visibility on the internet and my activities here. And I am willing to pay a fee for it. But I don't believe Henry wants the image of Proz.com to suffer. Attempts to educate translators about how they can go about setting adequate rates is proof for that. And many translators are willing to do that. But education doesn't necessarily mean that everybody will follow. For example, you can't educate bad outsourcers. Period. You can only try to lose them.
If we set standards here, cheap outsourcers will simply post their cheap jobs somewhere else, but so be it. The cheap bidders will follow them.
I am wondering how many bids we have here at proz.com per year - I'd be interested. Also, what's the latest count on "jobs posted on proz.com"?
My main hypothesis: More translators bidding for ever lower rates = lower translator rates overall. Bad for translators. Bad for the community of translators. Bad for Proz.com
Regards
Bernhard
[Edited at 2012-01-10 04:43 GMT]
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