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Birth certificate question: client requests name change in translation
Thread poster: Kathleen Shelly
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:39
Member (2008)
Italian to English
OK but.... May 13, 2018

Kathleen Shelly wrote:

A client has asked me to translate his American birth certificate from English into Spanish, and change his name from Richard to Ricardo on the translation. I have explained to him that I cannot legally do so, but he is very insistent. Any suggestions as to what else I can say to him?


OK tell him your name is Katalina Sciellé.


 
Platary (X)
Platary (X)
Local time: 14:39
German to French
+ ...
Back to the question posted May 13, 2018

Kathleen Shelly wrote:

I have explained to him that I cannot legally do so, but he is very insistent. Any suggestions as to what else I can say to him?



You said what there was to say. What else? What right does this client have to insist? Forget about him.


 
Maxi Schwarz
Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:39
German to English
+ ...
translations from languages with diff. alphabets versus here, etc. May 14, 2018

When a name starts off only having a version with a different alphabet or writing system, such as Russian, Arabic, Chinese etc., then it is literally impossible to use the "same spelling" in English because it's a different alphabet. Arabic, for example, only uses vowels when they are "longer". "Mohammed" (in its various Western spellings), in Arabic lettering is M H M D, with a squiggly thing over the 2nd M in "classical" to denote a doubling or lengthening of that M sound. Thus it could be ... See more
When a name starts off only having a version with a different alphabet or writing system, such as Russian, Arabic, Chinese etc., then it is literally impossible to use the "same spelling" in English because it's a different alphabet. Arabic, for example, only uses vowels when they are "longer". "Mohammed" (in its various Western spellings), in Arabic lettering is M H M D, with a squiggly thing over the 2nd M in "classical" to denote a doubling or lengthening of that M sound. Thus it could be Mohamed, Mohumed, Mohammad ... we see all kinds of versions. But if a name from a country using a Western alphabet comes into a document having the same alphabet, then the spelling must stay the same.

I translate from German and French to English, and I'm certified under the Canadian system so in this country my translations have a status similar to "sworn" translations. So I take extra care. One thing that can happen is that our "Mhmd" already has some documents: say a driving license in Germany, a landed immigrant document in Canada (English or French) so his name already has been given a "version" - say "Mohamad". It is best for him to get everyone to stick with that one version, because multiple versions of your name can give you problems in life. I will get a driving license, a certificate of conduct, a university transcript, letter of employment, each having a different version of his name. In each case, I must use the spelling in the document. Officials will be looking back and forth. If a name is misspelled, you must reflect that misspelling, add a [sic] and maybe a footnote.

2. St. Petersburg .... If there is a common accepted spelling of a place name, then that is what is used. So this problem won't come up. Just like "Muenchen" becomes "Munich".

The client in the OP is asking for something that cannot be done, and doing so would reflect badly on the translator.
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Kaspars Melkis
Kaspars Melkis  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:39
English to Latvian
+ ...
the change of spelling may be necessary May 14, 2018

Kay Denney wrote:

Ricardo and Richard are two different names, only sharing an origin. If you argue that they are the same, then when Sean leaves Dublin he'll be renamed Ian while in Scotland and Jean in France. I would be told my real name is Catherine, or should that be Kathryn? Cross a border and I become Katrina? No thank you.



You will in Latvia

Richard will be officially spelled Ričards. Catherine will become Katrīna or Katerīna. To make things less confusing, often the original spelling is added in brackets.

I see no problem Richard becoming Richardo in Spain, as it would be easier for Spanish people to pronounce.


 
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 13:39
Member (2007)
English to Portuguese
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Birth certificate May 14, 2018

Kaspars Melkis wrote:

Kay Denney wrote:

Ricardo and Richard are two different names, only sharing an origin. If you argue that they are the same, then when Sean leaves Dublin he'll be renamed Ian while in Scotland and Jean in France. I would be told my real name is Catherine, or should that be Kathryn? Cross a border and I become Katrina? No thank you.



You will in Latvia

Richard will be officially spelled Ričards. Catherine will become Katrīna or Katerīna. To make things less confusing, often the original spelling is added in brackets.

I see no problem Richard becoming Richardo in Spain, as it would be easier for Spanish people to pronounce.


Let’s not forget that we are talking of an official document (birth certificate).To sum up, it seems that for some of you a person’s name is not an embodiment of that person’s identity and it changes according to the country that person moves to…

[Edited at 2018-05-14 08:10 GMT]


 
Kaspars Melkis
Kaspars Melkis  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:39
English to Latvian
+ ...
Identity is negotiated by the society May 14, 2018

Teresa Borges wrote:
Let’s not forget that we are talking of an official document (birth certificate).To sum up, it seems that for some of you a person’s name is not an embodiment of that person’s identity and it changes according to the country that person moves to…

[Edited at 2018-05-14 08:10 GMT]


I think it is more about that languages with stricter phonetic spelling are more likely to modify the spelling of the name. And to consider the actual spelling of the name to be less important part of identity.

Especially if you consider noun declensions in some languages (including Latvian), the name has to be modified anyway to be used in a gramatically correct sentence.


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:39
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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I searched the Chinese market with the key word of "birth certificate translation" in Chinese May 14, 2018

On the websites of most of the translation companies in China that are specialized in certificate salutations, an instruction in Chinese is given to their potential clients, which can be roughly translated into something like this:

"The foreign birth certificate translation process:

Please send by email a clear photograph or scanned copy of the birth certificate you need translated into Chinese to info@{redacted}. Pl
... See more
On the websites of most of the translation companies in China that are specialized in certificate salutations, an instruction in Chinese is given to their potential clients, which can be roughly translated into something like this:

"The foreign birth certificate translation process:

Please send by email a clear photograph or scanned copy of the birth certificate you need translated into Chinese to info@{redacted}. Please put “birth certificate translation” in the email subject line, and provide the following information in the email:

(1) The Chinese name of the child; (2) Chinese names of the parents; (3) Your mobile phone number; (4) Your mailing address

The translation is generally completed within 2 days, which will be delivered to you with an express courier service."

Unlike the OP's case, in which the client requested his name to be spelled as "Ricardo" on the translation copy, any client who wants his or her child's foreign birth certificate translated into Chinese are required by the translation company to provide the Chinese name of the child.

This may imply that the Chinese name is required to appear on the translation copy of the birth certificate.

[Edited at 2018-05-14 10:21 GMT]
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Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 13:39
Member (2007)
English to Portuguese
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Birth certificate translation EN-ES May 14, 2018

Why oh why are you insisting on Chinese, Arabic, Latvian, Russian, etc., when the question regards only English->Spanish? Aren’t you moving away from the initial question?

[Edited at 2018-05-14 10:46 GMT]


 
Viesturs Lacis
Viesturs Lacis  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 15:39
English to Latvian
Question was answered May 14, 2018

Teresa Borges wrote:

Why oh why are you insisting on Chinese, Arabic, Latvian, Russian, etc., when the question regards only English->Spanish? Aren’t you moving away from the initial question?

[Edited at 2018-05-14 10:46 GMT]

I would think that the initial question about EN-ES has long since been answered by multiple people, with the clear consensus being that no such adaptation should take place in that particular language pair. With that said and done, the conversation has shifted to the universality (or lack thereof) of such principle, therefore people, including yourself ("[..] for some of you a person’s name is not an embodiment of that person’s identity and it changes according to the country that person moves to [..]"), are now remarking upon that topic.


 
Taña Dalglish
Taña Dalglish
Jamaica
Local time: 08:39
Spanish to English
+ ...
Absolutely, Theresa. May 14, 2018

Dear Kathleen:

As others have said, if the client insists, decline the job, or advise him if that before he himself changes his name to Ricardo and insists that you do what he is asking of you, he needs a legal document, i.e. change of name via deed poll (UK and in my country; in the USA, I am not sure what the procedure entails), and he has to provide you with the proof that he has legally changed his name. A case in point is my brother's legal name on his birth certificate, passp
... See more
Dear Kathleen:

As others have said, if the client insists, decline the job, or advise him if that before he himself changes his name to Ricardo and insists that you do what he is asking of you, he needs a legal document, i.e. change of name via deed poll (UK and in my country; in the USA, I am not sure what the procedure entails), and he has to provide you with the proof that he has legally changed his name. A case in point is my brother's legal name on his birth certificate, passport, etc. is "Ricardo", not "Richard" (even for an English-speaking country). Mine is the same, Taña, not Tania, Tanya, or any variation thereof (Tatiana) (funny, but true, they got it right this time!). There are times, however, where the "ñ" has been left off, e.g. my driver's licence, because their computer systems simply do not support foreign characters, and some then call me Tana, which annoys me no end, and it is not my name.

Jyaun US: As others have said, you are splitting hairs. Teresa is correct and this query relates to an EN-ES query, and therefore, not your supported languages. As far as I am concerned regarding the Chinese name appearing on the translation copy, the correct procedure should be is to use 'Richard (and then the equivalent Chinese characters in parentheses). You said: "Unlike the OP's case, in which the client requested his name be spelled as "Ricardo" on the translation copy, any client who wants his or her child's foreign birth certificate translated into Chinese is required by the translation company to provide the Chinese name of the child." What you did not say, is whether both "Richard" and the equivalent are required (even in Chinese), which IMO, is what should happen. I would find it difficult to believe that this in fact not the case. Then you said: "This may imply that the Chinese name is required to appear on the translation copy of the birth certificate." "May" is the operative word. It implies that you may not know, or your information is incomplete.

Regards.

Taña
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jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:39
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
About the use of "may" May 14, 2018

Taña Dalglish wrote:
Then you said: "This may imply that the Chinese name is required to appear on the translation copy of the birth certificate." "May" is the operative word. It implies that you may not know, or your information is incomplete.

Regards.

Taña


The information I posted has been translated from what I found on the websites in China. I just put it here for informational purposes only, and I'm not in a position to judge if that information is complete or not. But what I know is that the passage has been translated in its entirety and accurately.

I put "may" there in order to avoid being too judgmental. Did you conclude that "you may not know" because of my use of "may"?


[Edited at 2018-05-14 18:34 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-05-14 18:42 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-05-14 18:43 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-05-14 18:43 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-05-14 19:45 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-05-14 23:49 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:39
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Logic May 14, 2018

Taña Dalglish wrote:
Then you said: "This may imply that the Chinese name is required to appear on the translation copy of the birth certificate."


By this I didn't rule out any other possibility. The information contained in "the Chinese name is required to appear on the translation copy of the birth certificate" doesn't tell us that "the English name on the original copy is not required to appear on the translation copy".

It is a logical fallacy to believe it does.

[Edited at 2018-05-14 18:37 GMT]

[Edited at 2018-05-14 18:40 GMT]


 
Kaspars Melkis
Kaspars Melkis  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:39
English to Latvian
+ ...
more info needed May 15, 2018

Teresa Borges wrote:

Why oh why are you insisting on Chinese, Arabic, Latvian, Russian, etc., when the question regards only English->Spanish? Aren’t you moving away from the initial question?

[Edited at 2018-05-14 10:46 GMT]


One aspect is that I wanted to expand the question because often clueless project managers question why you have changed the names in the translation and even that in inconsistent manner. They may not know that it is an acceptable practice in Latvian to translate names especially for official purposes therefore more awareness is a good thing.

Another is that I don't find the question why it is not permitted in EN>ES pair fully answered. Are there any laws or regulations in this regard in Spain (or the country in question)? Or maybe there are RAE guidelines or simply adopted good practice for names in legal translations?

I mean, I don't question that the practice of not changing the spelling in EN>ES legal translations is reasonable. I just think that if I was in a position of a clueless client who had made such a request, I would want more detailed answer than it just can't be done. If not for legal reasons, then which legal acts or practices actually define it? Translators want to be perceived as professionals, so they have to give a professional answer. For example, in Latvian, I can find the style guides and even Cabinet regulations that state how and when person names have to be translated. I am sure that something similar exists in Spanish and I am curious to know.


 
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Birth certificate question: client requests name change in translation







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