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How to compete against experience and LOW rates? (rant warning)
Thread poster: Elda Veiga
Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei
Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei  Identity Verified
Ghana
Local time: 08:52
Japanese to English
Last chance! Mar 5, 2014

Elda Veiga wrote:
Nope, she told in a public place how much she charged. Unfortunately, that was the real amount.

Maybe she meant to write $8000 but slipped up and left a zero out. Or she meant to say she had one year worth of experience but wrote 10 instead.


 
Roy OConnor (X)
Roy OConnor (X)
Local time: 09:52
German to English
Perhaps... Mar 5, 2014

... she found the book so interesting, she would have translated it for free. Any payment is therefore a bonus.

Occasionally, I have had automotive technology texts which have been up to date and really interesting technically. So much so that I thought "I even got paid for it!".


 
Christian Esquivel
Christian Esquivel  Identity Verified
Colombia
Local time: 03:52
English to Spanish
+ ...
There are a lot of business killers in the field (this is long but worth reading) Mar 5, 2014

I've been translating for a few years and while I can't say I'm the best translator out there, I am certain that I am one of the best indeed.

During the time I have worked as a translator I have actually run into a couple of situations like this one (I guess a couple is an understatement):

1. I met this translator who told me once:

"I don't care if I charge $1,000 USD for a 200K translation to be delivered in a week. I'll just use machine translation, get
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I've been translating for a few years and while I can't say I'm the best translator out there, I am certain that I am one of the best indeed.

During the time I have worked as a translator I have actually run into a couple of situations like this one (I guess a couple is an understatement):

1. I met this translator who told me once:

"I don't care if I charge $1,000 USD for a 200K translation to be delivered in a week. I'll just use machine translation, get my money, and if the client complains, I'll just tell them off by saying this is what they paid for and if they want the translation fixed they'll have to pay at least $9,000 USD more. They can't expect to receive any quality of work for that money. I never tell my rates, I ask what their budget is, if it's too low I'll just take the money and send them a machine translation, if they're serious about their budget then I'll be serious about my work."

2. I worked for an agency whose main business is teaching English, but since they are so well-known around the city, most people go to them for translations.

The CFO decided that they will charge $13 USD per page, no matter how many words on it, or the field. They use $10 USD to pay their translators who prefer translating 300 pages a month for $3000 USD (even if they have to work 12 to 14 hours a day, even on weekends), than staying home getting little or no work at all, and they keep $900 USD per translator. They have 3 translators now.

The CFO explained they don't do it to get profit, they do it to kill the market and make all freelancers and other agencies go out of business. Once they achieve this, all translators MUST work for them and they will still keep $900 USD per translator so if they have 50 translators, they will be making $540,000 USD a year doing nothing while keeping full control of the business.

So, yeah, many people and agencies kill the business for us freelancers.

I decided to take over the customers from the first translator, my line to close a deal being: "I bet you have had people who say they will translate only for 5% or 10% of my rate, but at the end you received a meaningless translation. Let's do this, send me a small project: If you like my service, we start working on larger projects, if you don't, we'll leave it at that". They have always come back, thank God.

I also quit the agency and decided to target customers who look for quality and not for price such as large corporations and the like.

In summary, there will always be people who are detrimental for our business, but if you have your clients focus on quality rather than on price, in the long run, you'll have your clients loyal to your services.
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Gerard de Noord
Gerard de Noord  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:52
Member (2003)
English to Dutch
+ ...
Entirely on the other end of the scale Mar 5, 2014

Roy OConnor wrote:

... she found the book so interesting, she would have translated it for free. Any payment is therefore a bonus.


Entirely on the other end of the scale, but so true: I sometimes compete with ladies who are willing to translate an e.g. Louvre catalogue or Concertgebouw newsletter for free. Their only demand is to be named on page 2 or 3. But maybe I'm digressing,

Cheers,
Gerard


 
Vincenzo Di Maso
Vincenzo Di Maso  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 08:52
Member (2009)
English to Italian
+ ...
Of course Mar 6, 2014

Elda Veiga wrote:

Frankie JB wrote:
- Finally, there is no reason to be frustrated in those cases: Just offer what you consider your fair rates, don't look at other bidders (there will always be rats in the rat race) and move on!


Wise words, Frankie. I'm actually not frustrated/upset, just... well, stunned. My country has been going through some serious economic hardships, but someone can find a day job that pays better than what she's going to make; even a cashier or a house cleaner earns a better pay.


But as some people already said in this thread, I shouldn't be spending my time with this. Perhaps the amount of work will make her realize her value and stop selling herself short.

Thank you everyone for your inputs! It was good to know this isn't actually a current practice in our industry!

Yes, of course. And consider that a person working in a restaurant can benefit of Social Security, some meals to bring home, paid extra hours, etc...
I always think that people working with insulting rates will never be our competitors.
Conversely we are threaten by skilled people working at low rates (e.g. 0.04 or 0.05 Euro cents) stating to work at very high rates.


 
Thayenga
Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:52
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Offer vs. bid Mar 6, 2014

Elda Veiga wrote:

And yet, today I discovered another freelancer with 10+ years of experience willing to translate a 85k book for 800 USD - no royalty split, pay-for-hire, probably even losing moral rights.
How do I compete against that? Less than $0.01 per word, offering an expert service. Yes, I know that if someone's willing to work for this rate, the client will take the offer, but my question is why someone would work for such pay? The person in case lives in the same city, so the overhead costs don't get into play here, they'll be similar.
I'm simply stunned.


Yes, if someone stays within the terms provided by the outsourcer, then it is indeed difficult to compete with such "pitiful" rates and the fact that one is being deprived of any future/additional revenues.

However, when I see or receive an interesting project, I always submit my quote based on certain requirements, e. g. how much do I need to earn per hour in order to make a decent living?, which special skills does the project involve?, and in the case of a book translation, how well will this place itself on the market and are additional rights such as a possible movie involved?

Just because someone placed a quote doesn't necessarily mean that their quote did stay within the price range or any affiliated rights provided by the outsourcer.

We sometimes need to let the client know that we too need to make a living, that we are highly educated and skilled professionals who are, IMHO, entitled to an equivilant value for the value (the translation) we deliver. We are service providers, not social workers. On second thought, social workers receive a salary plus social security.


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 05:52
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
Long-term sustainability Mar 6, 2014

Experience is questionable. Most translators will shine in some job types/subject areas, and fail miserably in (hopefully few) others. So let's leave it aside, and take everyone's ability for granted here for the sake of this particular argument.

How many hours anyone would have to work every day to make it worthwhile over the long haul, i.e. to provide them with a good quality of life? If they don't need the money, why should be they engage in a sweat shop?

While one C
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Experience is questionable. Most translators will shine in some job types/subject areas, and fail miserably in (hopefully few) others. So let's leave it aside, and take everyone's ability for granted here for the sake of this particular argument.

How many hours anyone would have to work every day to make it worthwhile over the long haul, i.e. to provide them with a good quality of life? If they don't need the money, why should be they engage in a sweat shop?

While one CAT tool manufacturer advertises that their product makes grovelling translation rates quite profitable, we all know this is very far from the truth. Translation involves hard work, regardless of any CAT tool used.

So let's assume that this cheap translator will be desperately pounding the keyboard for some 18 hours per day to make ends meet. What quality will they deliver in such haste? Something very close to what anyone can get from Google Translate... absolutely FREE!

So if this bottom-feeding client wants to go one step further in lowering costs, GT will be their next option, and that "desperate" low-priced translator will be out of business again.
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Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei
Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei  Identity Verified
Ghana
Local time: 08:52
Japanese to English
Wow, she's got some nerve Mar 7, 2014

Christian Esquivel wrote:
1. I met this translator who told me once:

"I don't care if I charge $1,000 USD for a 200K translation to be delivered in a week. I'll just use machine translation, get my money, and if the client complains, I'll just tell them off by saying this is what they paid for and if they want the translation fixed they'll have to pay at least $9,000 USD more. They can't expect to receive any quality of work for that money. I never tell my rates, I ask what their budget is, if it's too low I'll just take the money and send them a machine translation, if they're serious about their budget then I'll be serious about my work."

I'm really surprised she hasn't been sued yet. Do the complaining clients just say "Okay" and walk away with their tails between their legs?


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:52
English to German
+ ...
Seems unlikely... Mar 7, 2014

Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei wrote:

Christian Esquivel wrote:
1. I met this translator who told me once:

"I don't care if I charge $1,000 USD for a 200K translation to be delivered in a week. I'll just use machine translation, get my money, and if the client complains, I'll just tell them off by saying this is what they paid for and if they want the translation fixed they'll have to pay at least $9,000 USD more. They can't expect to receive any quality of work for that money. I never tell my rates, I ask what their budget is, if it's too low I'll just take the money and send them a machine translation, if they're serious about their budget then I'll be serious about my work."


I'm really surprised she hasn't been sued yet. Do the complaining clients just say "Okay" and walk away with their tails between their legs?


That's what I want to know too. Seems very unlikely but who knows?!

B


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 05:52
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
Yes, of course! Mar 7, 2014

Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei wrote:

Christian Esquivel wrote:
1. I met this translator who told me once:

"I don't care if I charge $1,000 USD for a 200K translation to be delivered in a week. I'll just use machine translation, get my money, and if the client complains, I'll just tell them off by saying this is what they paid for and if they want the translation fixed they'll have to pay at least $9,000 USD more. They can't expect to receive any quality of work for that money. I never tell my rates, I ask what their budget is, if it's too low I'll just take the money and send them a machine translation, if they're serious about their budget then I'll be serious about my work."

I'm really surprised she hasn't been sued yet. Do the complaining clients just say "Okay" and walk away with their tails between their legs?


A man walks into a shoemaker's shop and says, "My left shoe has a hole. I want you to fix its sole now for 25¢". He takes out the shoe and puts it on the counter, together with a coin.

The experienced shoemaker cuts out two pieces of duct tape, sticks them onto the sole, one from the inside, the other on the outside, picks up the quarter, hands over the shoe, and says, "All set, sir! Thank you."

You get what you pay for.



If the client is a translation agency, it's their risk. The end-client might get wise, have it checked, and reject it. Then they'll have to hire someone to do the job properly, and pay whatever it costs.

Now and then I get hired to "redo the job properly", so I've seen it. Translation work done at about half my rate, on an overall assessment, is about as good (or as bad) as Google Translate. If it's human translation even cheaper than that, quite honestly, GT's output is actually better!

I don't use Google Translate (other than to communicate with prospects who only see my surname and write me in German or Polish). However I suggest its use to clients who want to pay too little for translation work. I even offer them a test comparison between what they'll get from me and from GT. I have my price, GT is free. If that's good enough for them, let them use it on their own!


 
Elizabeth Tamblin
Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:52
French to English
Perhaps Mar 9, 2014

Elda Veiga wrote:

Norskpro wrote:
I wonder about the quality of the translation, and so should the client.


She claims to have 10+ years of experience, and that's what's confusing to me. How can someone with such experience work like this?
And yes, I too wonder about the quality of the translation.


There are translators who enjoy translating, yet do not depend upon it for their income. Perhaps she has a rich partner and can afford to work for little or no money. I see nothing wrong with that either. I'm fed up of seeing criticism of people who charge low rates - there is no law against it, and we are all entitled to make our own choices.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:52
English to German
+ ...
Perhaps Mar 9, 2014

Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:

Elda Veiga wrote:

Norskpro wrote:
I wonder about the quality of the translation, and so should the client.


She claims to have 10+ years of experience, and that's what's confusing to me. How can someone with such experience work like this?
And yes, I too wonder about the quality of the translation.


There are translators who enjoy translating, yet do not depend upon it for their income. Perhaps she has a rich partner and can afford to work for little or no money. I see nothing wrong with that either. I'm fed up of seeing criticism of people who charge low rates - there is no law against it, and we are all entitled to make our own choices.


And perhaps that kind of "enjoyment" has no effect on our industry in general. And perhaps all these hobby translators are all excellent so we don't need those at all who charge so much more. Or perhaps we do need real translators once in a while but can now expect them to drop their rates significantly, thanks to the fact that so many others are excellent too and only charge a pittance or nothing at all because they enjoy translating so much and have rich partners. And there's lot of cheap projects out there.
It's just a pity I don't have a rich partner.

Oh, wait. Maybe if I am really good, I should be able to make more money. Let me think on that further.


 
Elizabeth Tamblin
Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:52
French to English
. Mar 9, 2014

I know several people who have an MA in translation, but due to lack of experience/contacts, are finding it impossible to make a living from translation. In order to gain the experience, they have no option but to take low-paid work. There are plenty of unscrupulous outsourcers here who are only too happy to exploit that fact. ProZ doesn't appear to do anything to discourage it either.

All I'm saying is that there are many possible reasons why people end up working for low rates, an
... See more
I know several people who have an MA in translation, but due to lack of experience/contacts, are finding it impossible to make a living from translation. In order to gain the experience, they have no option but to take low-paid work. There are plenty of unscrupulous outsourcers here who are only too happy to exploit that fact. ProZ doesn't appear to do anything to discourage it either.

All I'm saying is that there are many possible reasons why people end up working for low rates, and it is too easy to make negative judgements about them when you're in the privileged position of having plenty of well-paid work.

[Edited at 2014-03-09 18:48 GMT]
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Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:52
English to German
+ ...
Educating, not judging Mar 9, 2014

Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:

I know several people who have an MA in translation, but due to lack of experience/contacts, are finding it impossible to make a living from translation. In order to gain the experience, they have no option but to take low-paid work. There are plenty of unscrupulous outsourcers here who are only too happy to exploit that fact. ProZ doesn't appear to do anything to discourage it either.

All I'm saying is that there are many possible reasons why people end up working for low rates, and it is too easy to make negative judgements about them when you're in the privileged position of having plenty of well-paid work.

[Edited at 2014-03-09 18:48 GMT]


Most of these people don't do themselves any favors. How low are you willing to go? You can't make a career of it. To think you can first charge an abysmal rate and hope to get better jobs later is no way to start working in this industry. You can't sustain yourself that way for long. But by doing this, you ensure that the exploitation continues. Once someone can't work like that anymore and leaves and finds a totally different job, the next wave of newbies or hobbyists or people who don't know any better comes in and they let themselves be exploited again. It's a continuous cycle but it also takes the whole industry into a downward spiral.

I don't mean to judge anyone, I just try to educate. I don't know who really has plenty of well-paid work. But you might agree that people working for low rates don't help keeping well-paid work well-paid or inciting more well-paid work. And ... being cheap is not professional behavior in our industry. But there are at present simply too many bad eggs in the basket. It has become more difficult for all those committed to great service for adequate rates.

B

[Edited at 2014-03-09 19:05 GMT]


 
Wolf Kux
Wolf Kux  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 05:52
Member (2006)
German to Portuguese
+ ...
.. . a bit off-topic Mar 9, 2014

Elda Veiga wrote:

I'm actually not frustrated/upset, just... well, stunned. My country has been going through some serious economic hardships, but someone can find a day job that pays better than what she's going to make; even a cashier or a house cleaner earns a better pay.


Dear Elda,

as we say here in Brazil "conhecemos este filme do FMI!" (we know this IWF movie!) and we can say that all those "artists" (the Troika) at this movie go away and fall into oblivion at the end of the movie. Those artists are all "canastrões" (hammy).

It is a matter of time, and surely you would find better translation tasks than that one.

Nothing what they say did not worked on any country.


 
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How to compete against experience and LOW rates? (rant warning)







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