| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Optimizing your proz.com bids Thread poster: jmleger
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Elías Sauza 
Mexico
Local time: 07:54
Member (2002)
English to Spanish
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| It seems to me... | Jan 13, 2010 |
It seems that the point there is to "educate" freelance translators to:
1) Quote at the lowest rate possible.
2) Know how to prove that they are qualified and work for peanuts.
I don't know why an agency that posts job offers so frequently doesn't have a translators base to work with. There should be an increasing number of qualified translators who work for less day after day.
Elías Sauza
| | | | jmleger
Local time: 08:54
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | I understand your frustration, but you don't seem to understand me. | Jan 13, 2010 |
I am not by any stretch of the imagination trying to teach people how to quote the lowest rates possible or to show that they are qualified and ready to work for peanuts. There really is no need for that. I just have to post a job for this to happen organically. I have a section on rates and suchlikes in my ebook, but there is nothing I can do to regulate those. There are economic forces at work which are infinitely more powerful than I am.
As to the base of translators. We do have ... See more I am not by any stretch of the imagination trying to teach people how to quote the lowest rates possible or to show that they are qualified and ready to work for peanuts. There really is no need for that. I just have to post a job for this to happen organically. I have a section on rates and suchlikes in my ebook, but there is nothing I can do to regulate those. There are economic forces at work which are infinitely more powerful than I am.
As to the base of translators. We do have a pretty good base of translator we use regularly for certain clients. However, we like to fish for the best talent possible for any particular job. As we do, we discover great people, which we keep on our roster. The idea that you have one good translator (or two or three) and keep funneling all you work to him does not take into account the reality of the work, which is very diverse and comes with various constraints. We run our business, the way we see fit to ensure its success. In case you are wondering how much money I am making from the sweat of you brow, let me tell you that I still don't have that island in the Bahamas that I started out to get for myself many many years ago. methinks, I am in the wrong line of business to achieve that goal.
I feel I need to repeat that my sole purpose is to help people who bid for Proz.com job to do it more successfully. I don't really touch on money matters, because this is a highly personal question (and an emotional one as well). It's for you to decide what you want to be paid for your services, or if you van abide what is being offered out there. This is way beyond the limits of my bailiwick. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 09:54
Spanish to English
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| To JM: A call for greater transparency | Jan 13, 2010 |
Your logic is certainly compelling: If you are able to find translators who do a good job for rates that are a small fraction of what most others within a given language pair charge, then why would you not hire the former rather than the latter?
Even better when there are apparently so very many qualified providers grasping at the chance to work for such low rates.
And, to judge from the hallelujah chorus of praise on your LWA list, those who do choose to work for you... See more Your logic is certainly compelling: If you are able to find translators who do a good job for rates that are a small fraction of what most others within a given language pair charge, then why would you not hire the former rather than the latter?
Even better when there are apparently so very many qualified providers grasping at the chance to work for such low rates.
And, to judge from the hallelujah chorus of praise on your LWA list, those who do choose to work for you are for the most part deliriously happy with the arrangements they've agreed.
My only question at this point, given that you so clearly are not in the least ashamed of the rates you offer, is why you don't have your company name listed on your proz.com profile, as well as your Blue Board entry linked to your profile in a way that would allow everyone to more readily see the rates you have offered for jobs you have recently posted.
Surely the fact that site users cannot directly access your record of Jobs Board postings (or your agency's name) from your profile page is not intentional on your part, is it?
[Edited at 2010-01-13 16:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | jmleger
Local time: 08:54
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | In this great democracy of ours... | Jan 13, 2010 |
you are under no obligation to work with anyone, Robert. If the rates which are being offered by any outsourcers do not suit you, pass your merry way. Nor I nor anyone else owes you a rate that meets your approval. We are all subject to the economic laws of the market. It may be harsh, but you'd better get used to it because it's not going to change any time soon. The Internet changed things to the point that our business collapsed almost from one day to the next 8-9 years ago. It took us two ... See more you are under no obligation to work with anyone, Robert. If the rates which are being offered by any outsourcers do not suit you, pass your merry way. Nor I nor anyone else owes you a rate that meets your approval. We are all subject to the economic laws of the market. It may be harsh, but you'd better get used to it because it's not going to change any time soon. The Internet changed things to the point that our business collapsed almost from one day to the next 8-9 years ago. It took us two year to recover from a near-bankruptcy situation and I did not have the luxury of telling my clients that they needed to pay me more or accept my bids. In fact, the clients deserted us for a competitor who was charging a lot less than us because he was paying 3 cents in Argentina what we were paying 15 cents in the States. It was a hard awakening to the new hash reality let me tell you. I was surprised that there was no more loyalty in people we had served for years and years. Welcome to business 101, I was told. And if you don't like it, maybe you should go into another business, they might have added.
My purpose in the blog I started is not to discuss rates because it is an exercise in futility. I only aim at maybe helping people optimize their bids, and I don't mean tby cut their rates. I would not need to do that. All I need to do is post a job to see the rate regulation mechanism at work. It does not need to be encouraged I assure you. You should see the painfully low bids I receive. I am touching on the contrary on the way people present themselves and their bids. What they need to look for in order to avoid being disqualified offhand. Rates are a very personal matter. You have to decide between what you want and what the market can bear. I cannot set artificial rates tat will make you happy. And if i do it won't be for long because i will be plowed under real fast by my competition. One thing I can do, and i fact do, is to pay my people as soon as they deliver a job. They don't have to wait for 30 or 60 days. Even though I may have to. Even though I may never get paid.
The trouble when trying to engage freelancers is that it all comes down very fast to the matter of rates. I understand your frustration, but please realize that I am in now way responsible for the economic reality. You can make me the poster child for the GGet the outsourcer" campaign, but this won't change anything to your situation.
Finally, my blog is for people who want to know how to bid more effectively and who want to understand why their bids may get rejected. If you are not among those, don't waste you time with me.
Cheers! ▲ Collapse
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| I know why my bid got rejected | Jan 13, 2010 |
jmleger wrote:
Finally, my blog is for people who want to know how to bid more effectively and who want to understand why their bids may get rejected.
Cheers!
Before blocking your agency as an outsourcer, I might have bid on one or two of your projects. I could have sent the most perfect bid (according to your standards) and I still wouldn't have gotten the job for one and only one reason: I don't work for 3 cents a word. The readers of your blog should know that.
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Agree with Claudia. Perhaps that is why I have never submitted a bid (at least, I don't believe that I have ... hmm!) and I concur with Robert's postings too.
JM: While understanding your point of view, and as harsh as the economies are, it comes down to the usual story ... as translators, we cannot go to a grocery store, pick up items, and then tell the people that we cannot pay for the goods. We do without the item, right?; or use electricity and then when it comes to the time f... See more Agree with Claudia. Perhaps that is why I have never submitted a bid (at least, I don't believe that I have ... hmm!) and I concur with Robert's postings too.
JM: While understanding your point of view, and as harsh as the economies are, it comes down to the usual story ... as translators, we cannot go to a grocery store, pick up items, and then tell the people that we cannot pay for the goods. We do without the item, right?; or use electricity and then when it comes to the time for payment of the bill, you tell the company you will pay them in instalments, or when your funds come through, whether it takes six months or year? As translators, we have to face the same harsh realities that an agency or an outsourcer faces.
As you have stated, you have a wealth of translators in your database, many of whom are "repeat customers", for want of a better term. Quote: However, we like to fish for the best talent possible for any particular job. As we do, we discover great people, which we keep on our roster. The idea that you have one good translator (or two or three) and keep funneling all you work to him does not take into account the reality of the work, which is very diverse and comes with various constraints. Unquote
So, the question begs to be answered ... what are you "fishing" for? What sets one application apart as opposed to another? Perhaps, a few useful pointers to a successful bid in your blog would go a long way in clearing up any misconceptions (if there are any?). I would love to know.
Thank you and regards.
Taña ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 15:54
French to German
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| There are other interpretations... | Jan 13, 2010 |
jmleger wrote:
Again, I understand your frustration at not being offered rates which allow you to live decently in the States, but I am not responsible for that. Maybe you should turn to the translators in Mexico, Central and South America, and ask them what the hell they think they are doing cannibalizing your market.
about the situation of South American translators, but never mind. To each one their opinion, and devil take the hindmost. It is a pity you cannot (at it seems) read German, else I would have given you a link to a very interesting article, which confirms at least one of your points: the bigger companies get, the less they want to pay for externalised services.
[Edited at 2010-01-13 17:51 GMT]
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jmleger
Local time: 08:54
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER
Believe it or not, we don't know all the translators out there. We like to find new talent, that is what I meant by fishing. We are always looking for new people we might like to invite to our pool of translators. Is that egregious? Do we really need flogging for that? I would have thought that it is normal to look for new talent and keep our eyes open. We owe it to our clients. For instance, I posted a large job in French, although I have many French translators, and in spite of the fact that ... See more Believe it or not, we don't know all the translators out there. We like to find new talent, that is what I meant by fishing. We are always looking for new people we might like to invite to our pool of translators. Is that egregious? Do we really need flogging for that? I would have thought that it is normal to look for new talent and keep our eyes open. We owe it to our clients. For instance, I posted a large job in French, although I have many French translators, and in spite of the fact that I could have done it myself. I did it because I wanted to see if I could find someone suitable to handle all future jobs for this client. The people I have don't specialize in this type of translations and I really need to get someone I can trust. The pay is so competitive that I have over 30 people to choose from so far. Good bait, I would say. ▲ Collapse
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jmleger wrote:
When did I offer you 3 cents a word? I'd really like to know. Ask any person who works with us if they have ever been paid 3 cents a word. I have NEVER EVER offered such a low rate. (please at least speak the truth when you speak of me). But if I had indeed offered such a rate, and you decided to blocking us out, you did the right thing by you. Again, no one is forced to work with anyone.
I apologize if I made a mistake and you don't pay 3 cents per word--I take that back. But still, if you are going to make a post on how to win jobs, at least [b]people should know [b]that your rates are below average, regardless of the country.
| | | | jmleger
Local time: 08:54
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | Average rates | Jan 13, 2010 |
The averages posted by Proz.com are a pipe dream. I don't know if they are meant to flatter the translators or someone shame the outsourcers in offering more, but they don't reflect the reality in this country. My opinion is that Proz.com should stay away from the rate business. It does not help anyone. Do you really think that an outsourcer is going to pay a translator the Proz.com avergae rate, when it is much higher than his own clients are paying him? Let us be serious for a second. Frankly,... See more The averages posted by Proz.com are a pipe dream. I don't know if they are meant to flatter the translators or someone shame the outsourcers in offering more, but they don't reflect the reality in this country. My opinion is that Proz.com should stay away from the rate business. It does not help anyone. Do you really think that an outsourcer is going to pay a translator the Proz.com avergae rate, when it is much higher than his own clients are paying him? Let us be serious for a second. Frankly, I would like to know why Proz.com feels it has to post "Average Rates" when it is not involved in the transaction at all? Frankly, I think that this falls outside of their purview, but if makes them happy, more power to them. I have no problem with it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 09:54
Spanish to English
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| With all due respect... | Jan 13, 2010 |
jmleger wrote:
In this great democracy of ours, etc.
...I really think that I made your points in your response to me better--and certainly less heatedly--than you have yourself. Maybe you should go back and read my last post.
Anyway, you did not address the main issue that I raised there, which was the fact that your agency's name is not mentioned anywhere on your proz.com profile, which means that there is no link from your profile page to the Blue Board listing which shows all of your recent postings and rates offered.
If you can confirm that such "missing linkage" was purely unintentional on your part and not meant in any way to make it difficult for other site users to readily link your name to your long history of posting jobs offering what many of us would consider absurdly low rates, and if you state your intention to rectify the omission quickly now that it has been drawn to your attention, I will consider the matter closed.
I would only add by way of conclusion that I think such transparency should be required by this site.
Cheers!
[Edited at 2010-01-13 18:40 GMT]
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 15:54
French to German
+ ...
| Aren't we discussing an outsourcer... | Jan 13, 2010 |
in a public forum?
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