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Nobleza señorial

inglés translation: seigneurial nobility

Entrada de glosario (tomada de la pregunta de abajo)
Término o frase en español:Nobleza señorial
Traducción al inglés:seigneurial nobility
Aportado por: broca

09:59 Nov 29, 2018
Traducciones de español a inglés [PRO]
Social Sciences - Historia
Término o frase en español: Nobleza señorial
"EL SERVICIO A LA NOBLEZA SEÑORIAL COMO VÍA DE PROMOCIÓN SOCIAL: LOS SEÑORES DE EL PUERTO Y LOS CABALLEROS JEREZANOS (1480‒1520)"

Title of journal article. Sorry I have no more context.
broca
Local time: 17:28
seigneurial nobility
Explicación:
I am indebted to Robert Carter for suggesting this alternative. On reflection, I think it would be preferable here to my first suggestion, "landed nobility", so with Robert's encouragement I offer it as an alternative.

I think it is clear that "señorial" refers to possessing and exercising "señorío", which means, in the words of the article I cited in my first answer, "dominación sobre tierras y hombres". Landed estates are estates that generate income, through rents of various kinds. This is one of the bases of feudalism. Indeed, it would not be altogether inaccurate to translate this term as "feudal nobility". However, the word "feudal" is really associated with the medieval period, and by the early modern period (starting in the late fifteenth century) the social system underlying feudalsim in the strict sense was changing, so the word "feudal" is to some extent an anachronism: the medieval vassal-lord relationship was evolving into something a bit different; the theory underlying the feudal system of rights and mutual obligations

It is customary among English-speaking historians of Spain to refer to the higher nobles who held estates in the early modern period as "seigneurial", and I think that is how "señorial" is being used here. Although it is accurate to call them "landed" nobles, I think "seigneurial" captures the full implications of "señorial" better: not just possession of land but the economic control over people, now tenants rather than strictly vassals in the old sense. This is particularly true of Andalusia, where the system of large estates or latifundios was perpetuated.

Some examples of "seigneurial nobility" in relation to Spain. The following, by Brian Hamnett (Emeritus Profesor of History at Essex University), is about the eighteenth century, underlining the perpetuation of the seigneurial system in Spain, as in France, right up to the French Revolution (1812 in the case of Spain):

"Bringing new talent, often from provincial and lesser nobilities, into ministerial positions did not affect the continuing social dominance of the seigneurial nobility, civil or ecclesiastical, beyond immediate court circles."
https://books.google.es/books?id=X81RDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT135&lpg=P...

"Up until 1812 the class of great landowners formally constituted the seigneurial nobility"
Carlos Marichal, Spain, 1834-1844: A New Society
https://books.google.es/books?id=GIM1sxP8XBAC&pg=PA12
(Marichal is Mexican but he studied at Harvard and his English is perfectly reliable.)

And a number of references to the "seigneurial" system in Spain can be found in the work of reliable historians. I think it's suitable here.
Respuesta elegida de:

Charles Davis
España
Local time: 17:28
Grading comment
Thank you
4 puntos KudoZ otorgados a esta respuesta



Resumen de las respuestas recibidas
4 +3landed nobility
Charles Davis
4 +2seigneurial nobility
Charles Davis
3Manorial aristocracy
Ana Vozone


Entradas de discusión: 1





  

Respuestas


12 minutos   Nivel de confianza: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
Manorial aristocracy


Explicación:
https://www.google.pt/search?ei=_Lr_W4uMO_XRxgOb74s4&q="mano...

Ana Vozone
Local time: 16:28
Idioma materno: portugués
Pts. PRO en la categoría: 8
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26 minutos   Nivel de confianza: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 Coincidencias de otros usuarios (netas) +3
landed nobility


Explicación:
It looks like a tautology at first sight, but I think "señorial" does add something, and that it's this. "Nobleza señorial" refers to the section of the nobility that had señorío in the old feudal sense of land, property and a dependent population. There was also a "nobleza no señorial" which was primarily urban.

"La nobleza señorial tan sólo consiguió la propiedad plena de sus señoríos allí donde ya lo había hecho durante el siglo XVIII [...]. A esas dificultades se añadió el frecuente desplazamiento de antiguas oligarquías municipales, representantes de una nobleza no señorial —o incluso antiseñorial en ocasiones— que combinaban la propiedad con el uso del privilegio y que se reforzaban con la utilización, muy extendida en España, del mayorazgo".
https://books.google.es/books?id=UJtPojieZSIC&pg=PT25

Here's an article, quite an important one in this area, on "La nobleza señorial en el reinado de Alfonso X":

"Resulta obvio que, como si resultara una redundancia, existió un nexo perfecto entre los conceptos y las realidades de “nobleza” y “señorial”, porque la alta nobleza no habría sido tal sin esa capacidad de dominación sobre tierras y hombres."
Dialnet-LaNoblezaSenorialEnElReinadoDeAlfonsoXConstitucion-5176657.pdf

I think you could make a case for using "higher nobility", but I don't think that's quite it. "Landed" is closer to the idea of "señorial", I think.

"Aristocratic ambition was also associated to a conduct related with the ways of life and values that formed the identifying hallmarks of the nobleza señorial, or landed nobility, as the dominant group in all kingdoms"
https://www.brepolsonline.net/doi/pdf/10.5555/M.SEUH-EB.6.09...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 28 mins (2018-11-29 10:27:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Proper link for second ref is:
https://dialnet.unirioja.es/descarga/articulo/5176657.pdf

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 46 mins (2018-11-29 10:45:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It is a bit. Off the top of my head maybe "the knightly class of/in Jerez" might be worth considering. But don't hold me to it!

Charles Davis
España
Local time: 17:28
Se especializa en este campo
Idioma materno: inglés
Pts. PRO en la categoría: 312
Notas al usuario que envió la respuesta
Usuario que pregunta: Thank you, Charles. "Caballeros jerezanos" is another tricky translation.


Comentarios de otros usuarios sobre esta respuesta (y réplicas del usuario que envió la respuesta)
Coincido  Carol Gullidge: sounds logical! (not to mention noblesse oblige... (only joking!))/ noblest => noblesse, of course (wretched predictatext - that wasn't me trying to be clever!)
33 minutos
  -> Thanks a lot, Carol :-)) That's a relief! I was thinking I was too stupid to understand the pun :-)

Coincido  Yvonne Gallagher
1 hora
  -> Many thanks, Yvonne :-)

Coincido  neilmac: Lord Snooty and his pals :-)
1 hora
  -> Cheers, Neil :-) You've just taken me back... I'd better not say how many years.

Neutral  Robert Carter: Not sure about this. I think there's a case for "seigneurial" or even "señorial" nobility. My first thought was "feudal nobility", which is basically right, but there are some nuances depending on the specific region concerned, and the era.
6 horas
  -> After further reflection and reading I'm coming round to the view that seigneurial (not feudal) might well be what's wanted here. I should have thought of it. If you felt like posting it, I'd agree. I won't delete this because I think it's defensible.
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2 días 6 horas   Nivel de confianza: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 Coincidencias de otros usuarios (netas) +2
seigneurial nobility


Explicación:
I am indebted to Robert Carter for suggesting this alternative. On reflection, I think it would be preferable here to my first suggestion, "landed nobility", so with Robert's encouragement I offer it as an alternative.

I think it is clear that "señorial" refers to possessing and exercising "señorío", which means, in the words of the article I cited in my first answer, "dominación sobre tierras y hombres". Landed estates are estates that generate income, through rents of various kinds. This is one of the bases of feudalism. Indeed, it would not be altogether inaccurate to translate this term as "feudal nobility". However, the word "feudal" is really associated with the medieval period, and by the early modern period (starting in the late fifteenth century) the social system underlying feudalsim in the strict sense was changing, so the word "feudal" is to some extent an anachronism: the medieval vassal-lord relationship was evolving into something a bit different; the theory underlying the feudal system of rights and mutual obligations

It is customary among English-speaking historians of Spain to refer to the higher nobles who held estates in the early modern period as "seigneurial", and I think that is how "señorial" is being used here. Although it is accurate to call them "landed" nobles, I think "seigneurial" captures the full implications of "señorial" better: not just possession of land but the economic control over people, now tenants rather than strictly vassals in the old sense. This is particularly true of Andalusia, where the system of large estates or latifundios was perpetuated.

Some examples of "seigneurial nobility" in relation to Spain. The following, by Brian Hamnett (Emeritus Profesor of History at Essex University), is about the eighteenth century, underlining the perpetuation of the seigneurial system in Spain, as in France, right up to the French Revolution (1812 in the case of Spain):

"Bringing new talent, often from provincial and lesser nobilities, into ministerial positions did not affect the continuing social dominance of the seigneurial nobility, civil or ecclesiastical, beyond immediate court circles."
https://books.google.es/books?id=X81RDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT135&lpg=P...

"Up until 1812 the class of great landowners formally constituted the seigneurial nobility"
Carlos Marichal, Spain, 1834-1844: A New Society
https://books.google.es/books?id=GIM1sxP8XBAC&pg=PA12
(Marichal is Mexican but he studied at Harvard and his English is perfectly reliable.)

And a number of references to the "seigneurial" system in Spain can be found in the work of reliable historians. I think it's suitable here.

Charles Davis
España
Local time: 17:28
Se especializa en este campo
Idioma materno: inglés
Pts. PRO en la categoría: 312
Grading comment
Thank you

Comentarios de otros usuarios sobre esta respuesta (y réplicas del usuario que envió la respuesta)
Coincido  Chema Nieto Castañón: What about manorial nobility? // Clear enough! Thanks a lot!!
8 horas
  -> Thanks, Chema :-) The word "manorial" is strongly associated with Britain (and Ireland) and to me it's culturally inappropriate to apply it to Spain.

Coincido  Robert Carter: You make a good case, Charles. I think, as it's Spain, I'd still prefer senorial/señorial, or perhaps the alternative spelling of "seigneurial": "seigniorial", but that's quibbling really. Thanks for laying it out so clearly. :-)
10 horas
  -> Many thanks, Robert :-) I am a proxy for you here. I don't think the spelling is significant, really. You mentioned that you found only one case of "señorial"; it's in a passage translated from Spanish.
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