This site uses cookies.
Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site,
while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used.
For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
German to English translations [PRO] Art/Literary - Poetry & Literature / Musil, Die Amsel
German term or phrase:Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte
Diese Zeile entstammt einer Kurzgeschichte von Musil, wo er von den Nachtgeräuschen in einem Berliner Hinterhof erzählt.
Meine Frage ist: Wie kann man das Wort "Späte" ins Englische übersetzen? Diese schöne Nominalisierung des Adjektivs "spät" haut ins Englische nicht ganz hin.
Ich wollte das Wort ursprünglich als "lateness" übersetzen, aber das ging nicht, weil es "Unpünktlichkeit" bedeutet. Hier meine anderen Versuche:
"At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are obviously drunkenness and things late."
ODER
"At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are distinctly drunkenness and the (late) hour."
Hat jemand einen Tipp bzw. eine Idee für mich? Danke!
Explanation: Having come to this pretty late there was a lot to read through and I'm not sure I grasped all the innuendos. So I am just trying for a Kunstwort as was suggested here: " Johanna Timm, PhD: Späte is-as you noted above-a made-up word, ein Kunstwort (rooted, of course, in "spät"). Ideally, and in order to do justice to Robert Musil’s linguistic/poetic/literary genius, one would have to COIN a new English word (or modify an existing one)."
So here is my coining . Just as there is no word Späte, only spät there is no word untime, only untimely.
Or as opolt suggests "one strategy could be to "alienate" an existing expression in order to create a similar effect in English with different means" So another possibility could be to say something enigmatic or puzzling such as "drunkenness and time"
Well, your first foray into KudoZ produced nothing if not argumentative and imaginative responses from some of our "stars". "Poetry and Literature" questions certainly make a welcome change from all those legalese and engineering terms which are usually translators' daily fare and stump "enthusiasts" like me. BTW there is no need for you as Asker to take part in the debate if you have really provided all there is in the way of context, although it's usual to keep track of what is going on.
I apologize for the belated answer here. I'm new at ProZ & KudoZ and wasn't sure about the technicalities or that so many people answered so quickly! Thank you all for your help!
Seeing that this is the first question you ever asked here, you will – I hope - be utterly impressed with the enthusiasm, tenacity, diligence, sense of humour, persistence, resourcefulness and creativity of this great community!!!!
But no worries, not every question gets such response, we just do this to newcomers to hook them in. Welcome :)
Good evening, Herr Nienerza. You have already been labelled patronising by one unfortunate soul who stumbled in on this debate. Now you are telling me that I “have difficulties in grasping…”. We are *all* having difficulties with this text. You are confident of your interpretation and I am confident that any translation into English needs to be accessible to an English reader. Perhaps together, we can come up with something that satisfies both criteria?
… and welcome to the party (better late than never). It is most gracious of you to give the ENS seal of approval to ‘lateness’, but this on its own certainly does not do the business. If you follow the time stamps on this convoluted debate, you will see that I did concede at 00:47 on the night in question (Constable), that ‘lateness of the hour’ could somehow be worked into the prose. This was taken up 11 hours later by the current leader on +2. Unfortunately, I got hammered by two GNS who appear only to have read the headline term. Anyway, why not join in the fun and suggest your own translation or endorse one of those already on offer?
This may be the rather late rambling of a misspent student youth, but, for me, the idea of drunkenness and lateness would not be incomprehensible (as a native speaker). "Lateness" does not merely imply the state of being late. In this context, a Brit would understand what lateness meant, i.e., a boozy and protracted evening and all the accompanying noise that may ensue. It may or may not be a demonstration of disregard for another's right to sleep, but that does not seem to be in question here.
that "Späte" is not "really" acceptable for GNSes - and to have something not "really" acceptable for ENSes would just do Musil justice.
You have btw a strange gôut for puns. Things like "late hood" can be produced for lots of En words, e.g. "accept able", "just ice" etc. - Such punning does not prove anything for or against anything.
I bow to the GNS here in understanding Musil’s intention. But when it comes to putting it into comprehensible English, this is where we ENS can play our part. Take my word for it, Roland, ‘latehood’ doesn’t work. (The late hood, Al Capone…)
I have been the first to point out that "Späte" is not a "legitimate", i.e. established word in De - and some others have taken this up.
There has been some argument here about the meaning of "lateness" and whether this would fit into this context. But "lateness" is of course a "legitimate", i.e. establshed word in En.
How about the idea to coin something similarly "illegitimate" for this translation, by calling "Späte" - "latehood". There are even a handful of more or less dubious hits for this in Google, which of course do not prove that the word "exists", but that it has been thought about by some at least already, and this, judging from Google, is more than what can be said of Musil's creation.
... given that you're suggesting I'm not even translating here, I guess I don't have to answer in detail. :-| But I find that statement quite patronizing.
BTW it's not the author but the narrator -- startled or not.
To repeat myself, these are just some ideas, because I felt there has been some lack of creativeness in the answers so far, especially wrt "Späte".
1,- The author is not startled but seems to have followed the "development" from the evening into night hours. - 2,- Things late might suite "Spätes" rather than "Späte". - 3,- It simply is all about noise - arranged in two groups of two.- 4,- "Things" would be not only strange and awkward, but also banal. - 5,- This would spoil the rhythm of the sentence.
But it sure is a way of explaining - though not of translation.
WRT "Späte", one strategy could be to "alienate" an existing expression in order to create a similar effect in English with different means.
Though I'm not a native speaker of English, I can think of various ways to produce this effect. For instance, we take the word "things" which according to my knowledge may imply in some cases that you're talking about something nasty you don't want to talk about explicitly. "Things" then gets combined with an adjective following it, which adds to the effect of a somewhat strange expression. So you'd get: "drunkenness and things late" -- which IMHO would be close in its awkwardness to the German expression.
Also, I'd prefer "downstairs" to "from below": "Noise and laughter downstairs at 2 a.m., what, pray, is that if not drunkenness and things late."
These are just some ideas and examples, I don't claim that these are really good solutions. But the trick is to create strangeness in the expression with devices which are different from the author's (if necessary). Be creative. Also, the rhythm of the sentence should IMHO reflect the scandal of getting startled so late at night.
In that case, he probably had in mind the noise of a cat knocking the lid off a dustbin, the sound of the electrically powered milk float or maybe the hum of a refrigerator...
Musical interlude: Changing Opinion - Philip Glass http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1irfiYgf2pA Gradually we became aware of a hum in the room An electrical hum in the room. It went mmmmmm Maybe it's the hum of a calm refrigerator, cooling on a big night Maybe it's the hum of our parents' voices, long ago in a soft light.
is not only susupiciously long for something as succinct - even if being an ephemeral whim - as "Späte".
"Carousing" could go with or even stand for "drunikenness", but would not normally to be associated with "lateness [of the hour]". "late-night carousing" is somewhat might be a funny invention in its own right, but does not relate to "Späte" in this context - for a De native.
And the analogy of "Späte" is not so much with far fetched "Kälte", "Höhe", "Länge" - oder "Tiefe" and "Kürze" usw., but obviously just and directly with "Frühe". - But while "Frühe" exists, "Späte" does not - and is a creation that will not be anybody's cup of tea. - In any case it is not mine. But as a translator one has do deal with it.
Das Ohr folgt den Lauten, die das Vorschreiten der Nacht signalisieren; dieses Vorschreiten wird signalisiert zuerst 1. Durch Laute des Lärmens und Laute des Lachens und dann 2. durch Laute der Trunkenheit und Laute der Späte, woraus folgt: Das Vorschreiten der Nacht wird signalisiert durch [..]Laute der Späte.
Man sollte sich also fragen: was stellt sich Herr Musil unter „Lauten der Späte“ vor? Ganz sicher spielt er hier mit den Sprachformeln „Laute der Stille“ (Grillenzirpen) bzw. „Laute der Frühe“ (Vogelsang).
Eine richtig schöne, künstlerische Übersetzung müsste alle diese Überlegungen berücksichtigen.
The future tense implied in the present is a completely regular and therefore correct feature of De - and probably most other languages, in different degrees. But one has to be aware of it - that a present, particularly in De, can be a future.
As far as your entry is concerned I admit that I did not read much of it after having seen your translation.
I don’t normally venture into the Discussion Box once I have posted an answer, but I feel I must respond to RN’s assertion that Musil meant the present tense ‘ist’ to be read as a *future tense*. This is at odds with the rest of RN’s explanation which then suggests that Musil intended to use the *present tense* of ‘wird’ (becomes). Had he read on beyond the headline of my answer, he would have seen that I addressed this very issue in my “Note added at 2 hrs (2010-12-06 02:19:41 GMT)”. In short, I do not believe that Musil made any grammatical error. Many contributors to KudoZ avoid negative comments from site users who are too idle to read information in detail by posting ‘Siehe unten’ in the headline box. One of the reasons they do this is that the system automatically rejects ‘See below’ as a proposed term!
Das Verb heisst - übrigens grammatisch unkorrekt - "ist", und das ist wohl ein futurisches Präsens, also eigentlich "wird / werden [zu]". - "Um zwei Uhr werden das fröhliche Geplapper und Gelächter schon deutlilch zu Gelalle, Gegröle und besoffener Verblödung."
... due to drunkenness and the lateness of the hour. Ich denke, so kann man das auch auffassen.
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
19 mins confidence: peer agreement (net): +2
"Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"
"(At two o'clock the loud noises and laughter below are obviously drunkenness and) the late hour"
Explanation: I think it might be better than not to include the word late, as this is the word in the German. Hope this might be of help.
Louise McNei (X) Local time: 10:10 Native speaker of: English
2 hrs confidence: peer agreement (net): -1
"Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"
"At two o'clock in the morning din and laughter below have clearly turned into drink and lateness."
Explanation:
Man würde natürlich "drunkenness" vorziehen, aber das passt eben schlecht schlecht zu"lateness".
Wie ich als Reference belegt habe, gibt es auch nicht den geringsten Grund, "lateness" nur als "Verspätung" zu verstehen.
Im übrigen ist ja für De natives klar, dass "Späte" eine "artistische ad-hoc-Bildung" ist, die in der realen Sprache praktisch gar nicht existiert. - Und diese Kunstform von "Späte" schliesst "Verspätung" auch ein. Musil hätte auch "Spätheit" schreiben können, aber das war ihm wohl noch nicht knapp genug.
Asker: Hallo Roland! Danke für die ausführlichen Kommentare! Entschuldigung für die verspätete Antwort (wie passend!) - ich bin bei KudoZ ganz neu und habe die Benachrichtigung nicht gesehen.
Ob ich "ist" ohne "geworden" als "turning into" übersetzt würde, bin ich mir nicht so sicher. Der Übergang von Abend zu Nacht und Nacht zu Tag ist eigentlich nicht im isolierten Satz, sondern in Zusammenhang mit den anderen Sätzen der Geschichte zu lesen. Das konnten Sie aber nicht wissen, da ich nur den einen Satz hier geschrieben habe. Es ist eher so, dass Musil Satz für Satz das Bild des Werdens beschreibt.
7 hrs confidence:
"Um zwei Uhr ist Lärmen und Lachen unten schon deutlich Trunkenheit und Späte"
At 2 am the noise and laughter are obvious results of drink and wee hours.
Explanation: This could do it.
-------------------------------------------------- Note added at 8 hrs (2010-12-06 08:22:44 GMT) --------------------------------------------------
You could leave out the "results of" and simply "are obviously drink and wee hours"
Ramey Rieger (X) Germany Local time: 11:10 Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 77
peer agreement (net): +2
