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Jungkommunist

English translation: novice communist

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
German term or phrase:Jungkommunist
English translation:novice communist
Entered by: Bernhard Sulzer

20:50 Dec 3, 2008
German to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - Philosophy
German term or phrase: Jungkommunist
"(...) und 1928 antwortet der Erfolgsautor und ***Jungkommunist Bertolt Brecht*** auf die Frage nach dem Buch, das ihn am stärksten beeinflusst habe: 'Sie werden lachen, die Bibel!' "

Can anyone help me with an explanation or translation of this term?
The text it is taken from can be found here:
http://www.uni-duisburg-essen.de/einladung/Vorlesungen/epik/...
But it doesn't really offer much further context for that particular phrase.

Thank you!
Catherine Winzer
Germany
Local time: 18:19
novice communist
Explanation:
not "junger" Kommunist but Jungkommunist (= newly declared communist)

just-turned- communist
new member of the communist party
who just turned communist
who just declared himself (a) communist
who had just embraced communism

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2008-12-03 21:27:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

..who had just embraced communism/Marxism..communist/Marxist thought

your context confirms the time of 1928, when Bertolt Brecht had newly embraced Marxism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertolt_Brecht
From his late twenties Brecht remained a life-long committed Marxist

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2008-12-04 00:12:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You should probablydisregard those of my suggestions that have the word "party" in them.

It would probably be more correct if the original text would call Brecht a Jungmarxist/neuer (Neo-) Sympathisant des Kommunismus/Marxismus - translation: novice Marxist/new Marxist/communist sympathizer.

I am quite sure Brecht was in fact never a member of any communist youth group.
He himself stated many times that he never was a member of any communist party.

http://www.bertolt.com/bertolt_brecht.html

...Some authorities say that the reason Brecht never held Communist Party membership was because, although he agreed with fundamental principles of Communism, he was unsure that the Communist Party itself would carry them through. ...
...While Brecht's communist sympathies were a bane in the United States, East German officials sought to make him their hero. Though he had not been a member of the communist party, he had been deeply schooled in Marxism by the dissident communist Karl Korsch, and his communist allegiances were sincere. He claimed communism appeared to be the only reliable antidote to militarist fascism and spoke out against the remilitarization of the West and the division of Germany.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2008-12-04 00:32:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

regarding the term "Jungkommunist":

it could be argued that in Catherine's text, it actually stands for "Young Communist" as Helen sees it, in the sense of being a member of a communist youth group and that Catherine's text simply (wrongly) assumes that in fact Brecht was a member of such group. That would be more than a careless mistake because Brecht always vehemently rejected anybody's claim of him being a member of any communist party - so where should that mistake come from? But neither do I think that Catherine's text is trying to imply that he was in fact a "young" communist as in "28 years old."
To me the most likely meaning in the original is that he in fact just officially admitted his Marxist attitude/sympathy.
Another indication of the latter meaning of the original text is that he is called an Erfolgsautor "und" Jungkommunist - probably a description of his persona then.
So, I believe the only mistake in the original is maybe that he is called a "Kommunist" instead of a Marxist, but the definition of a communist does not have to be "member of a communist party."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2008-12-04 01:13:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In order for someone to accept that the text is wrong and (wrongly) means "Jungkommunist" as in member of the communist youth group", the text must be wrong on two counts:
1. wrong: Brecht is 28 years old and has just now started to have an interest in Marxism/communism (there is proof of that); correct: he was a communist from an early age on (but there is no proof).
2. wrong: He is called an Erfolgsautor und Jungkommunist - as in "right now he is both"; correct: in the sense of Erfolgsautor und "ehemaliger" Jungkommunist - although that sounds more like he used to be a communist and is no longer one.

Just a few thoughts. It is possible that there is a mistake in the original text. But it is also possible that the original text just makes it a bit hard to interpret the actual fact. If it was written by a contemporary of our times, I also lean towards my interpretation.
80 years ago, the term "Jungkommunist" could have had a different main connotation.

Hope this helps you make the right decision.

:)



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2008-12-04 01:26:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

regarding the right term:

a couple of more neutral suggestions, especially if "novice2 seems too "unknowledgable":
new (recent) supporter of communism / Marxism / the communist thought
...
a (fairly) new communist supporter/sympathizer




Selected response from:

Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 12:19
Grading comment
I had great trouble choosing an answer as both arguments have their validity. I'm giving the points to Bernhard as his answer was detailed and helpful and provided references. Unfortunately, I don't have any contact with the author. My client is quoting this text in their own text.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2young communist
Yaotl Altan
3 +2novice communist
Bernhard Sulzer
Summary of reference entries provided
Young or young
Susanne Rindlisbacher
Brecht and communism
Helen Shiner

Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
young communist


Explanation:


Yaotl Altan
Mexico
Local time: 10:19
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish, Native in ItalianItalian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Helen Shiner: Exactly. "Willkommen bei den Jungkommunisten der KPD Regionalorganisation Halle/Bernburg": http://freenet-homepage.de/KPD-Jugend-Seite/
6 mins
agree  Stephen Old: Genau!
15 mins
agree  Ivan Nieves
16 mins
disagree  Susanne Rindlisbacher: "Jungkommunist" bezieht sich hier nicht auf Brechts Alter, sondern darauf, dass er erst seit kurzer Zeit Kommunist war.
1 hr
neutral  Lancashireman: If the author (rightly or wrongly) ascribes membership of the youth wing of the Communist Party to BB, your answer would require upper case: ‘Young Communist’. Lower case ‘young’ is merely a reference to age.
4 hrs
neutral  TonyTK: I very much doubt this is a reference to his age.
13 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
novice communist


Explanation:
not "junger" Kommunist but Jungkommunist (= newly declared communist)

just-turned- communist
new member of the communist party
who just turned communist
who just declared himself (a) communist
who had just embraced communism

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 36 mins (2008-12-03 21:27:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

..who had just embraced communism/Marxism..communist/Marxist thought

your context confirms the time of 1928, when Bertolt Brecht had newly embraced Marxism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertolt_Brecht
From his late twenties Brecht remained a life-long committed Marxist

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2008-12-04 00:12:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You should probablydisregard those of my suggestions that have the word "party" in them.

It would probably be more correct if the original text would call Brecht a Jungmarxist/neuer (Neo-) Sympathisant des Kommunismus/Marxismus - translation: novice Marxist/new Marxist/communist sympathizer.

I am quite sure Brecht was in fact never a member of any communist youth group.
He himself stated many times that he never was a member of any communist party.

http://www.bertolt.com/bertolt_brecht.html

...Some authorities say that the reason Brecht never held Communist Party membership was because, although he agreed with fundamental principles of Communism, he was unsure that the Communist Party itself would carry them through. ...
...While Brecht's communist sympathies were a bane in the United States, East German officials sought to make him their hero. Though he had not been a member of the communist party, he had been deeply schooled in Marxism by the dissident communist Karl Korsch, and his communist allegiances were sincere. He claimed communism appeared to be the only reliable antidote to militarist fascism and spoke out against the remilitarization of the West and the division of Germany.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2008-12-04 00:32:16 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

regarding the term "Jungkommunist":

it could be argued that in Catherine's text, it actually stands for "Young Communist" as Helen sees it, in the sense of being a member of a communist youth group and that Catherine's text simply (wrongly) assumes that in fact Brecht was a member of such group. That would be more than a careless mistake because Brecht always vehemently rejected anybody's claim of him being a member of any communist party - so where should that mistake come from? But neither do I think that Catherine's text is trying to imply that he was in fact a "young" communist as in "28 years old."
To me the most likely meaning in the original is that he in fact just officially admitted his Marxist attitude/sympathy.
Another indication of the latter meaning of the original text is that he is called an Erfolgsautor "und" Jungkommunist - probably a description of his persona then.
So, I believe the only mistake in the original is maybe that he is called a "Kommunist" instead of a Marxist, but the definition of a communist does not have to be "member of a communist party."

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2008-12-04 01:13:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In order for someone to accept that the text is wrong and (wrongly) means "Jungkommunist" as in member of the communist youth group", the text must be wrong on two counts:
1. wrong: Brecht is 28 years old and has just now started to have an interest in Marxism/communism (there is proof of that); correct: he was a communist from an early age on (but there is no proof).
2. wrong: He is called an Erfolgsautor und Jungkommunist - as in "right now he is both"; correct: in the sense of Erfolgsautor und "ehemaliger" Jungkommunist - although that sounds more like he used to be a communist and is no longer one.

Just a few thoughts. It is possible that there is a mistake in the original text. But it is also possible that the original text just makes it a bit hard to interpret the actual fact. If it was written by a contemporary of our times, I also lean towards my interpretation.
80 years ago, the term "Jungkommunist" could have had a different main connotation.

Hope this helps you make the right decision.

:)



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2008-12-04 01:26:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

regarding the right term:

a couple of more neutral suggestions, especially if "novice2 seems too "unknowledgable":
new (recent) supporter of communism / Marxism / the communist thought
...
a (fairly) new communist supporter/sympathizer






Bernhard Sulzer
United States
Local time: 12:19
Works in field
Native speaker of: German
PRO pts in category: 24
Grading comment
I had great trouble choosing an answer as both arguments have their validity. I'm giving the points to Bernhard as his answer was detailed and helpful and provided references. Unfortunately, I don't have any contact with the author. My client is quoting this text in their own text.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Johanna Timm, PhD: ja, das ist präziser!// analog zB zu Junggrüner, Jungliberaler, Jungkonservativer etc.http://www.mydict.com/Wort/Jungkommunist/
8 mins
  -> danke, Johanna. Schönen Gruß über den großen Teich!
agree  Ken Cox: fledgling might also work, depending on the tone of the text
51 mins
  -> thank you for your comment , Ken!
agree  Susanne Rindlisbacher: "recent member" würde ich nicht nehmen, da er, meines Wissens, nicht KPD-Mitglied war
1 hr
  -> ja, im Falle Brechts nicht, aber für tatsächliche Mitglieder der komm. Partei passt's.
disagree  Helen Shiner: The Jungkommunisten were the youth branch of the Communist party:Kommunistischer Jugendverband Deutschlands was a political youth organization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Communist_League_of_Germa... my ref comment below!!
1 hr
  -> Brecht was 30 years old in 1928. And that's the time when he embraced Marxist thought. I am not aware of Brecht being a member of the communist youth organization . and, at the same time, a successful author. Jungkommunist = new communist - I think poss.
disagree  Textklick: Helen has, I think, put her finger on it.
1 hr
  -> please see my reply to Helen's comment.
neutral  writeaway: novice Communist sounds very strange in English. personally have never seen/heard the word novice used in this context /I repeat, in THIS context. this is a "mild" (but 100%) disagree
12 hrs
  -> quite a minimal critique! It did not sound strange to me (but yes, I am not a native speaker); novice Communist: http://homepages.nyu.edu/~th15/billchap.html - or: Communist novice: http://www.trussel.com/hf/seed.htm
agree  hazmatgerman (X): Und siehe bitte meinen Kommentar mit Zitat oben.
1 day 16 hrs
  -> danke, hazmatgerman!
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Reference comments


3 hrs peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: Young or young

Reference information:
Helen: This is the kind of question where I feel the gist is more important than the actual answer.
I don't think Bernhard's "novice communist" is very good, but he gives better suggestions below. Based on Bernhard's and your own entries the asker, presumably an English speaker, will be able to find a good solution.

Susanne Rindlisbacher
Portugal
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Helen Shiner: I hope so. I think I would go back to the client and give them the chance to amend or explain.
7 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

20 mins peer agreement (net): +4
Reference: Brecht and communism

Reference information:
Brecht may not have been a member of the Communist party, but he was certainly associated with communist thought.

"Brechts' [sic] books and plays were banned in Germany. His productions were interrupted profusely by the police, or otherwise banned altogether. This was the beginning of his exile. Began collaboration with Hanns Eisler (a revolutionary man in music) who fled Germany after being accused that he had ‘communist influences’ on the industry – but returned to reunite with Brecht. Together they searched for a communicative style of theatre and music, which was hard in a society such as Germany at the time. He was an optimist, and took the art form to a new level to create the play Die Massnahme – The Measures Taken. During this year, Brecht became more outspoken about his communist beliefs and theories."
http://www.usq.edu.au/PerformanceCentre/education/goodwomano...

"SUMMARY
Leading German dramatist Bertolt Brecht (1898-1956), the son of a Protestant mother and Catholic father, was born into a middle-class Bavarian family. Brecht's first success came with the 1922 production of Trommeln in der Nacht (Drums in the Night) in Munich. He moved to Berlin in 1924 in order to pursue his career in earnest. Brecht was appointed consultant for Max Reinhardt's German Theater. In Berlin he collaborated with composer Kurt Weill, most famously on Die Dreigroschenoper (The Threepenny Opera, 1928).

Although Brecht never joined the Communist party, he began to study the works of Karl Marx in the late 1920s and sympathized with the Communist cause. He became more critical of the Weimar Republic and wrote political films and plays which were banned by the government. His plays attacked German middle-class society, drew on Marxist principles, and criticized Nazism. Brecht fled Nazi Germany in February 1933, and his works were consigned to the flames shortly thereafter during the book burnings of 1933."
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=100060...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2008-12-03 22:41:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Without in any way wishing to get into an argument or even a discussion at this time of night, Marxism is not Communism, neither is a Marxist necessarily a Communist.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-12-03 22:53:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Your text may be wrong, though obviously you cannot 'correct' it, but Brecht was not a member of the KPD and I doubt he was a Young Communist either - this, you might say, is loose talk, but no need to compound it!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-12-03 23:08:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Der Jungkommunist"
http://www.kjvd.de/zeitung/zeitung.html

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2008-12-03 23:59:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Just to spell it out, since it appears i am still being misunderstood. In my view Jungkommunisten means Young Communist, not young communist, or young Communist, nor does it mean novice Communist/communist. Having said all that, Brecht was never a member of any part of the Communist Party/KPD or whatever. He was closely associated to it, you might say, and he certainly held Marxist beliefs (I do not know if he joined any form of Marxist political party, but I do not think so.). The voice in Catherine's text is wrong, but she has to translate it, so Young Communist. Sorry to go on, but there is insufficient room to respond properly in the peer comment sections and I do not want to add to the confusion.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2008-12-04 07:58:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Brecht did come to Marxist writings in his late 1920s, but when famously asked by the House Unamerican Activities (McCarthy) if he had ever been a member of the Communist Party or had applied to be, he replied, 'No, no, no, never!' There is no documentary evidence to the contrary. He wasn't a great Marxist either, as in a good one, believing that his version of Marxism was better than the Marxists. He really was/is a difficult man to pin down, though he certainly supported leftist causes of varying kinds. His support for the regime in East Germany in 1953 openly shocked people who had seen him as a cultural hero until then, and some of the glib assertions that he was a Communist stem from then. He, like Ernst Barlach, was his own man, however, and probably wily enough not to align himself to any fixed party line.

Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 43
Note to reference poster
Asker: Thanks, Helen, I appreciate your help!


Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Susanne Rindlisbacher: Yes. But why do you disagree with Bernhard's answer (other than that Brecht was not a member of the KPD)?
1 hr
  -> Simply because the correct term is Young [not young] Communist and not 'novice'. The Young Communists were the equivalent, so to speak, of the Hitler Youth. I cannot agree with your comment to Yaotl, therefore.
agree  Textklick
2 hrs
  -> Thank you, Textklick! Finally someone with some history!
agree  Lancashireman: Agree with your comment at 3hrs. It’s a real dilemma when the source text presents factually incorrect information.
4 hrs
  -> I hope Catherine can go back to the author to query this.
agree  Gunilla Zedigh
17 hrs
  -> Thank you, Gunilla
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