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SUGGESTION: Make second native language verification a separate paid feature for non-Plus members
Thread poster: Olga Sushytska
Olga Sushytska
Olga Sushytska  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 10:39
Member (2019)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
Jul 14, 2020

Hello fellow ProZers,

Here's something I've been thinking about for a while. Why not give people putting two native languages on their profiles a possibility to pay for the second native language verification if they don't want to buy a Plus membership?

Here's my story. I'm bilingual in Russian and Ukrainian, but only Russian appears as my verified native language on my profile. The ProZ support staff explained to me a while back that this happens automatically for peo
... See more
Hello fellow ProZers,

Here's something I've been thinking about for a while. Why not give people putting two native languages on their profiles a possibility to pay for the second native language verification if they don't want to buy a Plus membership?

Here's my story. I'm bilingual in Russian and Ukrainian, but only Russian appears as my verified native language on my profile. The ProZ support staff explained to me a while back that this happens automatically for people who claim two native languages and are not Plus subscribers.

Theoretically, you could apply for the second native language verification even if you are not a Plus subscriber by verifying the native languages of three or more peers first. For some reason, I am unable to participate in the peer verification program. When I try to apply for the program, I get a notification that I have NO verified native languages. The ProZ staff I talked to don't seem to know what to do about this bug, so the only way I can have both my native languages verified is to become a Plus subscriber. And I'm not interested in that.

At this point, I believe that the way my native languages are displayed looks strange and ambiguous from the point of view of potential clients. They have no knowledge of the ProZ system. When they see that one native language is verified and the other is not, wouldn't they question the reason? Did I not apply for the second language verification (if not, why?) or was I not able to prove my knowledge of the second language at the native level?

It would be so much easier to just pay for the second native language verification.
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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 09:39
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
I don't understand how this all works... Jul 15, 2020

On a related matter, I don't even understand how second native language verification is supposed to work. The FAQ says: "There is no fee for submitting an application to the ProZ.com Native Speaker Verification system. This verification is community-driven, and any user who reviews t... See more
On a related matter, I don't even understand how second native language verification is supposed to work. The FAQ says: "There is no fee for submitting an application to the ProZ.com Native Speaker Verification system. This verification is community-driven, and any user who reviews three or more applications can apply. Plus subscribers don't need to review applications before applying themselves."

That "any user who reviews three or more applications can apply" is paradoxical. Logically speaking, unless I misunderstand, it means that no-one can ever apply.
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:39
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Special case Jul 15, 2020

This is a special case. Russian and Ukrainian are so similar that it would be easy for a Ukrainian to claim complete fluency in Russian, and vice-versa. But I don't think this idea could be applied across the board. If it were, I could claim to be "bilingual" in British English, American English, Australian English, Irish English, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_language
... See more
This is a special case. Russian and Ukrainian are so similar that it would be easy for a Ukrainian to claim complete fluency in Russian, and vice-versa. But I don't think this idea could be applied across the board. If it were, I could claim to be "bilingual" in British English, American English, Australian English, Irish English, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_language




[Edited at 2020-07-15 09:28 GMT]
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Stephanie Busch
Stephanie Busch  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:39
English to German
+ ...
To Samuel: How the first verifications were done Jul 15, 2020

There were three testing rounds in 2017 where Certified PROs were invited to test the peer-based native language verification process.

The https://www.proz.com/native-language-verification/ page explains how the first verifications were arrived at: Not only users already verified as a native speaker, but also those who have only one native language can verify applications.

Bildschirmfoto 2020-07-15 um 11.26.18


 
Elena Feriani
Elena Feriani
Italy
Local time: 09:39
Member
French to Italian
+ ...
They're not the same language at all! Jul 15, 2020

Tom in London wrote:

This is a special case. Russian and Ukrainian are so similar that it would be easy for a Ukrainian to claim complete fluency in Russian, and vice-versa. But I don't think this idea could be applied across the board. If it were, I could claim to be "bilingual" in British English, American English, Australian English, Irish English, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_language




[Edited at 2020-07-15 09:28 GMT]




Take the following phrase translated by Google translate.

Thank you for the flowers

RU: дякую за квіти
UA: спасибо за цветы

I would say they're more like Spanish and Italian, than like two dialects of English. "Thank you" in Ukrainian sounds more like "thank you" in Polish, completely different from the the Russian "sposibo".


 
Alistair Gainey
Alistair Gainey  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:39
Russian to English
Not exactly Jul 15, 2020

Tom in London wrote:
This is a special case. Russian and Ukrainian are so similar that it would be easy for a Ukrainian to claim complete fluency in Russian, and vice-versa. But I don't think this idea could be applied across the board. If it were, I could claim to be "bilingual" in British English, American English, Australian English, Irish English, etc.


Russian and Ukrainian are certainly similar, and there are plenty of people who speak both. But whereas, as you say, a Brit might claim fluency in various varieties of English simply by virtue of knowing British English, a Russian couldn't claim fluency in Ukrainian simply by virtue of knowing Russian (or a Ukrainian fluency in Russian simply by virtue of knowing Ukrainian). They could probably read and understand quite a bit, but writing would be a different matter.


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Plenty of other exceptions Jul 15, 2020

For example, there is not a single native speaker of Welsh who is not also a native speaker of English.

Patagonia possibly excepted.

But then again, few will not be stronger in one language than the other. And isn’t that the point?


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
When there's a will Jul 15, 2020

While it's unlikely that one could regularly and equally use N1 and N2 in a foreign country,
What is the price tag?

If some $50+ would do as incentive for a second/third/forth native language verification, perhaps the ProZ might help so many willing to pay, right? If there is any business use many sufferers, of course.

Show them your money and submit a support tick
... See more
While it's unlikely that one could regularly and equally use N1 and N2 in a foreign country,
What is the price tag?

If some $50+ would do as incentive for a second/third/forth native language verification, perhaps the ProZ might help so many willing to pay, right? If there is any business use many sufferers, of course.

Show them your money and submit a support ticket!
That’s it.

[Edited at 2020-07-15 13:30 GMT]
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IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 03:39
English to Russian
+ ...
This subject really makes me sick Jul 15, 2020

Peer review? There are quite a few peers here whom I respect and admire with all my heart, professionals so wonderful that they may not even accept me as their peer, but do they have a guaranteed job for me should they approve me? I am in the “vast minority” of supporters of tests, free or paid (for the right clients, of course) but on what grounds can Proz claim the right to test me when it operates based on a “doctrine” of no job guarantee whatsoever?

The system is pretty
... See more
Peer review? There are quite a few peers here whom I respect and admire with all my heart, professionals so wonderful that they may not even accept me as their peer, but do they have a guaranteed job for me should they approve me? I am in the “vast minority” of supporters of tests, free or paid (for the right clients, of course) but on what grounds can Proz claim the right to test me when it operates based on a “doctrine” of no job guarantee whatsoever?

The system is pretty messed up and the outsourcers can post job offers that make no sense.
Example: I have never claimed English as my native language. Open-market EN>RU rates plummeted all the way down to the Earth core and it makes no sense to hunt on Proz grounds; my clients come from different sources. Just about the only job offers I would pay attention to are occasional interpretation assignments. The latest one stated simo, Ru>En AND vice versa. If the offer was indeed serious, I’m sure that at least I would have been checked out unless they were looking for low rates, and I could afford waiting for the offer opening after 12 hours. My resume and experience fit like a glove, the location was fantastic (Fiji Island, been there and wouldn’t mind to rinse and repeat😊) but I couldn’t apply because I didn’t state English as my native language. What was I supposed to think about client’s “vice versa”??? It looks like without stating English as my second native language, getting “verified” and, as I’ve learned from the topic starter, buying Plus membership I’ll be “locked out” for good anyway. That’s what I call discrimination.

My spoken English was “verified” by lunar astronaut Thomas Stafford and 154 countries who were listening to the first docking of the Russian manned spacecraft to the ISS in, I believe, 2001 or 2. Nobody called in for clarifications. Into English, because poor quality of comm with lots of RF noise at the time prevented my otherwise absolutely fabulous, brilliant partner, a native English speaker and a UN!!!! Ru>EN interpreter from understanding most parts of Russian conversations. I did 85% of the job. I have recordings saved. That’s good enough for me. No one but a verified and worthy prospective client with an actual and confirmed project at hand has the right to test me. According to the rules, Proz provides venue only; the rest should be client’s problem. Isn’t it what Proz's company policy says? Essentially, I rent storage space but no one can go through my stored things without a warrant. Tell me again that nativity = a genius.

This is what prevents me from buying the membership at all. The cost of the membership is not an issue, I spend a lot more on my cats. I even thought that I chat on fora often enough to pay my rent but this never-ending nativity subject makes me very angry. If you want to verify me, announce a real worthy project found and secured by Proz and to be manned by Proz, and I might subject myself to whatever verification that may please you. But then again, it will turn out that I’ll be “verified” by the competitors…

On a side note – Russian and Ukrainian are not nearly that close; I can’t understand a single full sentence in, say, some politician’s speech but many people that grew up in Ukraine can rightfully claim that that are fully bilingual. They just are.
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Bernhard Sulzer
 
Tina Vonhof (X)
Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 02:39
Dutch to English
+ ...
Your profile Jul 15, 2020

I don't quite understand the problem, so I looked at your profile. What I see there is that the credentials for all your language combinations are verified and both Russian and Ukrainian are mentioned at the top as your native languages. Isn't that all any prospective client needs to know?




[Edited at 2020-07-15 15:11 GMT]


Jo Macdonald
Tom in London
 
Olga Sushytska
Olga Sushytska  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 10:39
Member (2019)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
the price is not the point Jul 15, 2020

DZiW wrote:

What is the price tag?


Well, the current price tag is the Plus membership. I'm certainly looking for something cheaper.

The way I see it, Proz either has to give people other options or drop the verification completely. Members with one native language do not need to go through the verification process, and members with two have one of their languages verified automatically, so no actual verification is happening anyway.


 
Olga Sushytska
Olga Sushytska  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 10:39
Member (2019)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
it's the tiny 'N' marks Jul 15, 2020

Tina Vonhof wrote:

I don't quite understand the problem, so I looked at your profile. What I see there is that the credentials for all your language combinations are verified and both Russian and Ukrainian are mentioned at the top as your native languages. Isn't that all any prospective client needs to know?




[Edited at 2020-07-15 15:11 GMT]


Hi Tina,

Here's how the languages are represented in the top part of my profile:
n

The orange (or whatever colour it is) 'N' next to Russian means it was verified. If you click on the 'N' next to either one of the languages, this message pops up:
"Olga Sushytska has reported the following native languages:
Russian
Ukrainian
Russian has been confirmed"

Maybe it's not a big a deal, but is still bugs me.


Angie Garbarino
 
Tina Vonhof (X)
Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 02:39
Dutch to English
+ ...
Learned something new today Jul 16, 2020

Olga Sushytska wrote:

Hi Tina,

Here's how the languages are represented in the top part of my profile:
n

The orange (or whatever colour it is) 'N' next to Russian means it was verified. If you click on the 'N' next to either one of the languages, this message pops up:
"Olga Sushytska has reported the following native languages:
Russian
Ukrainian
Russian has been confirmed"

Maybe it's not a big a deal, but is still bugs me.


I've had a proz profile for about 20 years and I had no idea. Now I discover that both my native languages are self-reported, LOL. Obviously it hasn't been a big deal, not for me or for any of my clients.


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:39
English to German
+ ...
Agree Jul 16, 2020

Chris S wrote:

But then again, few will not be stronger in one language than the other. And isn’t that the point?



Exactly. But we'll be back to the old native language discussion or are translators able to translate into their non-native language, say English. Many aren't, I'm sure ... Some collaborate with English native speakers. In any case, I have no intention at all to apply for jobs on the job board here because they are all mostly ridiculous. I get inquiries for both languages as target languages and I advertise both language directions. But frankly, I don't care at all about how I am portrayed here on this site with regard to my native language. I am listed as verified German native speaker. Thousands of other members are. And many say they're native in English when it's not verified or was verified by what? A credit card? The proof is in the pudding. Don't depend on the "n" on this site.

[Edited at 2020-07-16 04:22 GMT]


IrinaN
 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:39
English to German
+ ...
It's not a big deal Jul 16, 2020

Olga Sushytska wrote:

Maybe it's not a big a deal, but is still bugs me.


On your profile page, you mention your translation degree that you received in the Ukraine, right, and you show verification for it. People who only look at the the colored "n" icon aren't the ones you should be looking for. They're probably agencies desperate to find a native Ukrainian translator in the next 20 seconds who will accept a rush job for peanuts and wait 90 days to get paid. A responsible client will look at your whole profile.

[Edited at 2020-07-16 03:20 GMT]


Sheila Wilson
Tina Vonhof (X)
 
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SUGGESTION: Make second native language verification a separate paid feature for non-Plus members






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