Páginas sobre el tema:   < [1 2 3] >
ProZ Find™ search tool (alpha): speed improvement, search-by-location improved
Autor de la hebra: Henry Dotterer

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:13
FUNDADOR DEL SITIO
PERSONA QUE INICIÓ LA HEBRA
Where, Katalin? Jun 18, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

... I just did a search in a certain language pair and 90% who were listed as native are in fact, not natives. I was laughing when I looked at the list. They declared themselves native in both languages, but they are only native in one of them.

It is surprising to hear that you are able to produce a list, using the native filter, that shows 90% non-natives. Can you send me the link and tell me who you know to be non-native?


 

Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finlandia
Local time: 21:13
Miembro 2003
finlandés a alemán
+ ...
Interesting Jun 18, 2018

I tried the new Find-function and it looks alright to me, but I noticed most of my colleges charge far too low rates for Finnish into German.

 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:13
FUNDADOR DEL SITIO
PERSONA QUE INICIÓ LA HEBRA
Alphabet Inc.? Jun 18, 2018

Robin Levey wrote:
When I pick up a copy of the Yellow Pages to find someone to fix the leak under the sink, I (think) I know exactly what I need – a plumber (or perhaps a dishwasher-fixer…). I also know how to find a plumber in the YP – there’s a list of trades/professions, each with a dedicated section in the YP, and within the “Plumbers” section I will find a straightforward alphabetic list of plumbers, with enough other detail (e.g. geographical location, contact info) to decide who to call first, and who are my second and third choices if the first one is too expensive, unavailable, or whatever. There’s often a bit of extra information which might help me focus on dedicated professionals as distinct from fly-by-nighters (e.g.: pro service providers might go to the expense of boxed entries, so they stand out in the crowd), or mention that they also repair dishwashers (hey - put that guy at the top of the short-list!).

The point I want to make here is that making proper and efficient use of the YP is easy – because:
- The YP “algorithm” is straightforward, easy to understand – and obvious to any moderately literate user without recourse to a user guide.
- The YP delivers essentially “neutral” information, in an essentially “service provider driven” fashion (within a simple YP-designed structure), leaving the user to decide how to exploit that information on the basis of his/her own personal understanding of the task needing to be accomplished, and the role of the YP in that process.
- The YP “algorithm” is static...

According to that logic, Google ought to be serving up results alphabetically. (Hence the new name?)

Seriously, though, I get your point that it would be better to be neutral than to exhibit bias without firm basis. As you see, we are working to get it right.


 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:13
FUNDADOR DEL SITIO
PERSONA QUE INICIÓ LA HEBRA
Thanks, TargamaT team Jun 18, 2018

TargamaT team wrote:

I already pointed that I can not find my profile in the search...

If I do En, Fr, or De > Ar I can not find TargamaT team in the list...

For example: https://www.proz.com/find?slwz=eng&tlwz=ara&nl_wz=target&st=1&q=&sl=eng&tl=ara&nit=y&lpe=3&rpp=25

Thanks, TargamaT team! It does have to do with your account type. We are taking steps to differentiate more clearly between individuals and businesses. We do know that there are some people who work as freelancers, and also sometimes outsource. We want to accommodate their situations, too. So maybe we can think about how the right way to handle that here.


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
Estados Unidos
Local time: 14:13
Miembro 2002
inglés a húngaro
+ ...
Right... Jun 19, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:

It is surprising to hear that you are able to produce a list, using the native filter, that shows 90% non-natives.


As long as people are able to claim multiple native languages without verification, any native-filtered list will have non-natives. Even Red-P badge holders. The ratio varies, and it can be very high in the more exotic language pairs.

Can you send me the link and tell me who you know to be non-native?


Ahem, Henry... I learned in kindergarten that being a tattletale is not a good role.
I don't think I am the only one who - over the years - learned a lot about other ProZ members, perhaps even met them in person, and therefore was able to figure out which one is their native language (out of the two - or sometimes three (!) they claim).


 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:13
FUNDADOR DEL SITIO
PERSONA QUE INICIÓ LA HEBRA
Thanks, Katalin Jun 19, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:

It is surprising to hear that you are able to produce a list, using the native filter, that shows 90% non-natives.


As long as people are able to claim multiple native languages without verification, any native-filtered list will have non-natives. Even Red-P badge holders. The ratio varies, and it can be very high in the more exotic language pairs.

OK. My interpretation of your response is that you didn't mean the 90% part literally. (Correct me if I'm wrong about that, though.)

Thanks for replying.


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
Estados Unidos
Local time: 14:13
Miembro 2002
inglés a húngaro
+ ...
90% Jun 19, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:

It is surprising to hear that you are able to produce a list, using the native filter, that shows 90% non-natives.


As long as people are able to claim multiple native languages without verification, any native-filtered list will have non-natives. Even Red-P badge holders. The ratio varies, and it can be very high in the more exotic language pairs.

OK. My interpretation of your response is that you didn't mean the 90% part literally. (Correct me if I'm wrong about that, though.)

Thanks for replying.


I did mean it literally. A ratio of 10 or 11 out of 12 is 83% or 92 %.


[Edited at 2018-06-19 04:01 GMT]


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
Estados Unidos
Local time: 14:13
Miembro 2002
inglés a húngaro
+ ...
@Henry, Public-facing search is Find now? Jun 19, 2018

"Find" is still in Alpha, and you said you would scale back the promotion until it is figured out, then why is it that the public interface (the one shown to non-logged in people) offers ONLY this new Find search under the "Hire" menu?

Mirko Mainardi
mughwI
 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:13
FUNDADOR DEL SITIO
PERSONA QUE INICIÓ LA HEBRA
Separating the Find platform from the "best match" search Jun 19, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

"Find" is still in Alpha, and you said you would scale back the promotion until it is figured out, then why is it that the public interface (the one shown to non-logged in people) offers ONLY this new Find search under the "Hire" menu?

Good question, but there were additional postings after that. Based on survey feedback and usage patterns, we know by now that the interface and mechanics of Find are much preferred by users.

So we asked ourselves, how could we give people the benefit of the new platform without jumping to a sorting method that is not yet demonstrably better? The idea came up to retrofit Find with the "KudoZ sort" from the classic directory, and to default to that. Having done that, the same people (or very close) are coming up for the same searches.

With this compromise, and some other development based on usage and feedback (such as improved location search and speed improvements), I approved certain steps to increase the ratio of searches that go to Find.

At this point, although it is still the case that a minority of searches are going to Find, the experience seems to be quite satisfactory for all parties. Therefore, it may be that the release stage of Find could now be considered "beta"... while the status of the "best match" sorting algorithm is still "alpha" (if that.)


 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 14:13
FUNDADOR DEL SITIO
PERSONA QUE INICIÓ LA HEBRA
Need to look into this Jun 19, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
I did mean it literally. A ratio of 10 or 11 out of 12 is 83% or 92 %.

I really don't expect this. I'll contact you directly.


 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italia
Local time: 20:13
Miembro
inglés a italiano
Including "certified" pairs? Jun 19, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:

It is surprising to hear that you are able to produce a list, using the native filter, that shows 90% non-natives.


As long as people are able to claim multiple native languages without verification, any native-filtered list will have non-natives. Even Red-P badge holders.


I suppose that also includes target languages in pairs for which they hold a "Red-P badge"?


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
Estados Unidos
Local time: 14:13
Miembro 2002
inglés a húngaro
+ ...
No, certified and native are different Jun 19, 2018

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:

It is surprising to hear that you are able to produce a list, using the native filter, that shows 90% non-natives.


As long as people are able to claim multiple native languages without verification, any native-filtered list will have non-natives. Even Red-P badge holders.


I suppose that also includes target languages in pairs for which they hold a "Red-P badge"?

I am not sure I understand your question, but just to clarify:
In Find, when you click one of the radio buttons to require native in source or native in target, for this criteria, the search only looks at whether that language is declared on the person's profile as one of the native languages. It does not check whether the native status is verified. It also has nothing to do with whether the person has a Red P badge or not.

[Edited at 2018-06-19 22:37 GMT]


 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italia
Local time: 20:13
Miembro
inglés a italiano
Clarification Jun 20, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

I suppose that also includes target languages in pairs for which they hold a "Red-P badge"?


I am not sure I understand your question, but just to clarify:
In Find, when you click one of the radio buttons to require native in source or native in target, for this criteria, the search only looks at whether that language is declared on the person's profile as one of the native languages. It does not check whether the native status is verified. It also has nothing to do with whether the person has a Red P badge or not.

[Edited at 2018-06-19 22:37 GMT]


Since you wrote "Even Red-P badge holders", I was just asking whether, in your experience (either by meeting them in person, reading their posts, etc.), some of those who claim to be native in X, but are not, are also "certified" in Y>X.


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
Estados Unidos
Local time: 14:13
Miembro 2002
inglés a húngaro
+ ...
Does not matter for the native criteria in the Find search Jun 21, 2018

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

I suppose that also includes target languages in pairs for which they hold a "Red-P badge"?


I am not sure I understand your question, but just to clarify:
In Find, when you click one of the radio buttons to require native in source or native in target, for this criteria, the search only looks at whether that language is declared on the person's profile as one of the native languages. It does not check whether the native status is verified. It also has nothing to do with whether the person has a Red P badge or not.

[Edited at 2018-06-19 22:37 GMT]


Since you wrote "Even Red-P badge holders", I was just asking whether, in your experience (either by meeting them in person, reading their posts, etc.), some of those who claim to be native in X, but are not, are also "certified" in Y>X.


Mirko, we are going off-topic here, but let me answer this, as the last one. Yes, there are people who hold the "Certified Pro" designation in language pairs where the target language is not their native language. Some of these people do claim on their profile that they are native in the target language (while they are not). Being native in the strict meaning of the word does not seem to be a requirement to get the Red-P badge, and frankly, I am OK with it. For example, I am certified in two pairs, and one of those pairs is between my two non-native languages. (Just to clarify: I am OK with people getting certified in whatever pair, but I am not OK with people claiming to be native in a language when they are not. I understand that they do it partly because of how the directory search works, and that is why I have been advocating for years to change the "native" profile designations and search criteria. But that is a whole other topic.)
Again, this thread is about the search function here, and what I wanted to say here is that in my observation, when the "native" criteria radio button is selected, the search only looks at whether the required language is included on the person's profile among his/her claimed native languages. The search does not check the status of the claim (whether it is verified - yellow icon, or unverified - gray icon).
The whole point was to illustrate the unreliable nature of the underlying data that is being used for the search, and to emphasize that for an outsourcer it is much more important/valuable to be able to actually trust the information found in the directory.

[Edited at 2018-06-21 03:06 GMT]


Evelio Clavel Rosales
mughwI
 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italia
Local time: 20:13
Miembro
inglés a italiano
Not OT Jun 21, 2018

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:

Mirko, we are going off-topic here, but let me answer this, as the last one. Yes, there are people who hold the "Certified Pro" designation in language pairs where the target language is not their native language. Some of these people do claim on their profile that they are native in the target language (while they are not). Being native in the strict meaning of the word does not seem to be a requirement to get the Red-P badge, and frankly, I am OK with it. For example, I am certified in two pairs, and one of those pairs is between my two non-native languages. (Just to clarify: I am OK with people getting certified in whatever pair, but I am not OK with people claiming to be native in a language when they are not. I understand that they do it partly because of how the directory search works, and that is why I have been advocating for years to change the "native" profile designations and search criteria. But that is a whole other topic.)
Again, this thread is about the search function here, and what I wanted to say here is that in my observation, when the "native" criteria radio button is selected, the search only looks at whether the required language is included on the person's profile among his/her claimed native languages. The search does not check the status of the claim (whether it is verified - yellow icon, or unverified - gray icon).
The whole point was to illustrate the unreliable nature of the underlying data that is being used for the search, and to emphasize that for an outsourcer it is much more important/valuable to be able to actually trust the information found in the directory.

[Edited at 2018-06-21 03:06 GMT]


Katalin, thanks for your reply, but it's not OT. It simply isn't the topic you are currently interested in (whether the nativeness claim is verified or not), but it's still very relevant to the topic of this thread, which is ProZ "Find" as a whole.

Although Find is provisionally using Kudoz for ordering, it was also using the "Certified" status (to boost holders' ranking by default, in addition to the separate filtering option) until a few weeks ago, and it very well could again, so I believe it's important to discuss its reliability as an ordering/filtering criteria as well, especially since you just said you personally know of people "certified" in pairs for which they don't have native proficiency in the target language...

This has everything to do with Find and the reliability "of the underlying data that is being used for the search" (among other things).


 
Páginas sobre el tema:   < [1 2 3] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

ProZ Find™ search tool (alpha): speed improvement, search-by-location improved

Advanced search






TM-Town
Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business

Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.

More info »
Wordfast Pro
Translation Memory Software for Any Platform

Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users! Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value

More info »



Forums
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Búsqueda de términos
  • Trabajos
  • Foros
  • Multiple search