Need some help with argumentation on payment terms Thread poster: Inez Ulrich
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Inez Ulrich 
Germany
Local time: 20:38
Member (2016)
English to German
+ ...
Hi all,
this is a bit of a weird situation I'm in, and it is not about a client not wanting to pay, but rather about him interpreting payment terms differently after work has started.
I got a job offer from a company that has a health app and is quite successful with it. They wanted me to translate several different documents, so there were different projects (all managed on SmartCat). On the first day we discussed everything, also payment terms. Payment should be 15 days aft... See more Hi all,
this is a bit of a weird situation I'm in, and it is not about a client not wanting to pay, but rather about him interpreting payment terms differently after work has started.
I got a job offer from a company that has a health app and is quite successful with it. They wanted me to translate several different documents, so there were different projects (all managed on SmartCat). On the first day we discussed everything, also payment terms. Payment should be 15 days after delivery, and I even asked about it again to make sure it is correct (you know, once bitten, twice shy...;-). They confirmed. (I still have this conversation.)
In the beginning it all worked fine, payment was very punctual, no problem. Then (they added more and more tasks), it too them longer and longer to pay. They said they could only pay after the task had been edited, then proofread (by the PM himself. He has studied in Germany, but he is no translator and no native speaker and also doesn't speak German fluently. He even asked me several times about problems he had with sentences, and it got clear he has problems with this language. And he is the one proofreading my work? Just as a funny side note. I wanted to ask him how they could think it a good idea to proceed this way, but I didn't want to embarrass him.). As they obivously had so much work, it took them often more than double the time to finally pay, sometimes even more. When I asked them to please stick to our agreement, the PM got pissed. Payment took even longer. Whenever I mentioned our agreementl, I didn't get any answers, only some flat statements like "we still need to edit etc.
Don't get me worng. They are paying. I guess some of you will say that 15 days is fantastic anyway and if they pay a little later (depends on what a little later means) didn't matter that much. But that is exactly what I'm angry about. I deliver in time and I expect my clients to pay in time. It cannot be that I'm just glad they pay at all. I'm not their servant. But it seems no matter what I say this PM just ignores it and rattles off his stuff. Any ideas how "reach" him? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Is there really a problem? | May 7, 2020 |
Don't get me wrong, but I think you might create a problem here that isn't there. Of course it seems they don't keep your agreement to the letter, but what if you simply live with it? Is it really worth it to start bickering about? As you say, they do pay. It would be different if there was the risk that you don't get your money.
My suggestion would be to save your strength for the really important fights.
But if you really want to push through with it, you might consid... See more Don't get me wrong, but I think you might create a problem here that isn't there. Of course it seems they don't keep your agreement to the letter, but what if you simply live with it? Is it really worth it to start bickering about? As you say, they do pay. It would be different if there was the risk that you don't get your money.
My suggestion would be to save your strength for the really important fights.
But if you really want to push through with it, you might consider the so-called "non-violent communication" techniques: Don't use accusations, don't make assumptions about their motives, don't make it personal, just tell them how you feel about this, ask open questions. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Inez Ulrich
Germany
Local time: 20:38
Member (2016)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
Don't get me wrong, but I think you might create a problem here that isn't there.
Thanks, Kai-Viktor! That is exactly what I mean: why do so many here have no problem when clients interpret agreements to their taste? What if I did that? I wouldn't get paid because I didn't meet the deadline. If I don't pay bill, I get a warning. And the company or person I owe the moeny couldn't care less if I feel insulted by it. They want me to pay and they tell me so. They don't say "Hey, it is okay. Pay whenever you want to." Why should deadlines only apply to me as translator?
Thankfully, 99% of my clients pay like clockwork and they all have really good payment terms, but just because they are professional I'm not willing to let those that aren't have their way. I've worked and I want my money in due time.
Sure, you could always consider stuff like this not important, but to me it is. It is a question of being equal business partners. You know what I mean?
[Edited at 2020-05-07 18:31 GMT]
| | | | | Keep it professional, then | May 7, 2020 |
Inez Ulrich wrote:
Thanks, Kai-Viktor! That is exactly what I mean: why do so many here have no problem when clients interpret agreements to their taste? What if I did that? I wouldn't get paid because I didn't meet the deadline. If I don't pay bill, I get a warning. And the company or person I owe the moeny couldn't care less if I feel insulted by it. They want me to pay and they tell me so. They don't say "Hey, it is okay. Pay whenever you want to." Why should deadlines only apply to me as translator?
Thankfully, 99% of my clients pay like clockwork and they all have really good payment terms, but just because they are professional I'm not willing to let those that aren't have their way. I've worked and I want my money in due time.
Sure, you could always consider stuff like this not important, but to me it is. It is a question of being equal business partners. You know what I mean?
It seems to me this is mostly about your anger and frustration. I can understand that, but I think you should keep that strictly out of any professional contact. Send them standard payment reminders when they are overdue, and add some late payment fees if they are too much overdue. If they overdo it, you can still stop accepting more assignments until your outstanding bills are settled; this would be a normal risk management measure.
Maybe my nature is indeed somewhat different, but I save a lot of nerves this way. I do it the professional way even if the other side doesn't. I don't need to prove that I'm an equal business partner; this is not important to me. If the other side wants to play games, they can do that, for all I care; but if they overdo it, I'll just increase my rates or don't accept more work from them. As simple as that. (There is one agency that got on my nerves time and again with bureaucratic nonsense like checklists, platform restrictions and cumbersome QA processes. I increased my rates to the point where I thought they would quit, but they did not change a thing and still send me lots of work - but now it's for premium rates, which sweetens the deal a lot...)
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I wouldn’t work for someone on those terms, but it’s entirely your choice whether you do so or not, and whether you argue with them or not. I’m not sure what anyone else can say that will help.
The “I keep my deadlines” argument doesn’t really work, because you know that if you delivered late they would stop using you; similarly you can stop working for them.
It is annoying when people pay late, but only you can know whether the delays are a deal breaker.
| | | | Jan Truper
Germany
Local time: 20:38
Member (2016)
English to German
You could offer a change of payment terms to a period (30 or 45 days?) that will enable them to pay on time, possibly in exchange for a higher rate.
I personally value business agreements highly, and I expect the clients to do likewise (that's my understanding of the word "professional", which has been used in this thread). Consequently, I am rather strict about such things -- if payment is late according to the agreed terms, I stop working for the client immediately and hold delive... See more You could offer a change of payment terms to a period (30 or 45 days?) that will enable them to pay on time, possibly in exchange for a higher rate.
I personally value business agreements highly, and I expect the clients to do likewise (that's my understanding of the word "professional", which has been used in this thread). Consequently, I am rather strict about such things -- if payment is late according to the agreed terms, I stop working for the client immediately and hold delivery, until the matter has been resolved. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Anna Jaffe
Netherlands
Local time: 20:38
Dutch to English
+ ...
| Bad precedent | May 8, 2020 |
Personally, whether the current terms are good or not, what would worry me is that they are getting worse. I don't usually check on agencies or whatever, but people like this make me very nervous.
I had one UK agency that kept paying later and needing more reminders each time. I kept doing smaller and smaller jobs for them, as I didn't want to be stuck if they stopped paying altogether. Eventually I told them that I wouldn't be accepting any more work until they paid up. They hired new acc... See more Personally, whether the current terms are good or not, what would worry me is that they are getting worse. I don't usually check on agencies or whatever, but people like this make me very nervous.
I had one UK agency that kept paying later and needing more reminders each time. I kept doing smaller and smaller jobs for them, as I didn't want to be stuck if they stopped paying altogether. Eventually I told them that I wouldn't be accepting any more work until they paid up. They hired new accounting staff and they're better now, but I still get very little work from them and I'm fine with that. I'll never quite trust them not to do it again. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Inez Ulrich
Germany
Local time: 20:38
Member (2016)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Food for thought, for sure | May 8, 2020 |
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
It seems to me this is mostly about your anger and frustration.
Good idea!
I try to be as professional as I can, but if I get ignored or get only answers that don't fit my questions, I get angry. I can#t help it. It wasn't like I got unfriendly, but I was surely getting on this PM's nerves. I also waited for payment of those last tasks before I started with the last one. Now he says I missed the deadline, which isn#t true anyway and I could prove it.
Yesterday he said he would only wait for the editor to finish her work on this task and won't do any proofreading an send money on the day she is finished, whenever that will be...
They won't send me any work anymore anyway, but I guess that is fine.
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Inez Ulrich
Germany
Local time: 20:38
Member (2016)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Jan Truper wrote:
You could offer a change of payment terms to a period (30 or 45 days?) that will enable them to pay on time, possibly in exchange for a higher rate.
I personally value business agreements highly, and I expect the clients to do likewise (that's my understanding of the word "professional", which has been used in this thread). Consequently, I am rather strict about such things -- if payment is late according to the agreed terms, I stop working for the client immediately and hold delivery, until the matter has been resolved.
No, I'm not willing to give in to them being unorganized. I also waited for the payment of the last few tasks before I started working on this one. There will be no more cooperation anyway as they are fed up with being reminded of payment.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:38
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| In the long term, is this constructive? | May 8, 2020 |
Inez Ulrich wrote:
It wasn't like I got unfriendly, but I was surely getting on this PM's nerves.
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They won't send me any work anymore anyway, but I guess that is fine.
Unless you are absolutely wallowing in good projects, it might be better to find a way to restrain the impulses that drive you to act this way and get on your client's nerves. Eventually you will run out of clients, or at least good clients.
Just this morning a client sent back a translation with some minor questions. The person who checked it flagged a paragraph where a couple of phrases had been missed, and asked me to translate them. It turned out that it was not that those phrases had been omitted, but that the checker had used a different, slightly revised version of the source when comparing the Japanese to my English, and that revised version contained phrases that were not in my copy of the source.
For a brief moment I felt the urge to blast the checker for such an obvious mistake, but would it have been justified? Maybe the checker was sent the wrong source file by the PM. Maybe it was just a momentary lapse of concentration by the checker, of the kind we all have from time to time. There might be a number of reasons for such an error, and in the absence of evidence of ill-will or incompetence, should we not err on the side of caution and kindness? (In the end I politely pointed out that the source did not contain the phrases to which they refer, and left it at that.)
In the same way, if the client is generally a decent sort, is it not more productive to tamp down the urge - which I acknowledge most of us feel occasionally - to quibble, to object, or to lecture, and to instead make the effort to maintain a pleasant working relationship? For a demanding, abusive client, the effort is likely not worth it, but this client seems no more than a little fussy and forgetful.
As Kay-Viktor says, one should choose one's battles wisely.
Regards,
Dan
[Edited at 2020-05-08 10:07 GMT]
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 19:38
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Is this a real accounting nightmare for the client? | May 8, 2020 |
We often talk here about some clients being "high maintenance". They are not popular partners. I'm wondering if the roles are reversed here. Forgive me if I've read the situation wrongly. Are you doing frequent jobs, each needing to be paid within 15 days from delivery? If so, it sounds like an accounting nightmare on the client's end.
In my case, once we've done the groundwork, my clients only have to send a file with a "Can you...?" email to kick off a job that I confirm then del... See more We often talk here about some clients being "high maintenance". They are not popular partners. I'm wondering if the roles are reversed here. Forgive me if I've read the situation wrongly. Are you doing frequent jobs, each needing to be paid within 15 days from delivery? If so, it sounds like an accounting nightmare on the client's end.
In my case, once we've done the groundwork, my clients only have to send a file with a "Can you...?" email to kick off a job that I confirm then deliver. That's it until I send them an invoice on the last working day of the month, itemising all the jobs I did during the month. They have until the last day of the next month to pay it. If they forget, getting the next invoice generally reminds them and they pay both together. Basically, they only have to think about me when they need me, plus once a month at a regular time.
If it isn't a high-maintenance problem but simply a client who doesn't respect you enough to pay you on time, you're fighting a losing battle, IMHO. I used to tolerate that sort of client, when money was as important as my self-respect, but I won't accept them nowadays. Once it gets to the bickering stage, where you're constantly nagging them to do better, is it really a relationship that's worth trying to save? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Inez Ulrich
Germany
Local time: 20:38
Member (2016)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Sheila Wilson wrote:
We often talk here about some clients being "high maintenance".
As this is with SmartCat, the accounting process starts automatically once the PM has "accepted" a task, so this wasn't my idea but is automatic. I wasn't aware also that there would be tons of smaller tasks inbetween. I don't have a problme with being paid once a month, but if it then takes twice or three times the amount of time to get paid, I'm not happy, no matter if it happens once a month or as in this case several times a month.
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| Twice or three times? | May 8, 2020 |
Twice or three times meaning instead of 15 days, you're getting paid every 30-45 days? That's irritating, but not necessarily a deal breaker (for me, anyway). Especially if the rate is high and there's a good volume of projects coming in. Your point about clients not tolerating late work is a very valid one, but at the same time... money is money $$$$$. Pride! Self-respect! but first... money $$$$.
The real danger here is that the increasing late payments are a sign of a client in f... See more Twice or three times meaning instead of 15 days, you're getting paid every 30-45 days? That's irritating, but not necessarily a deal breaker (for me, anyway). Especially if the rate is high and there's a good volume of projects coming in. Your point about clients not tolerating late work is a very valid one, but at the same time... money is money $$$$$. Pride! Self-respect! but first... money $$$$.
The real danger here is that the increasing late payments are a sign of a client in financial trouble. I'd keep my eye out for red flags and start cultivating other clients while enjoying my... money $$$$.
Inez Ulrich wrote: Sheila Wilson wrote:
We often talk here about some clients being "high maintenance". As this is with SmartCat, the accounting process starts automatically once the PM has "accepted" a task, so this wasn't my idea but is automatic. I wasn't aware also that there would be tons of smaller tasks inbetween. I don't have a problme with being paid once a month, but if it then takes twice or three times the amount of time to get paid, I'm not happy, no matter if it happens once a month or as in this case several times a month. ▲ Collapse
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