| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Request to lower prices Thread poster: Emi B
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| No, I know, I also get all sorts of responds to my rates | Apr 18, 2020 |
Tom in London wrote: Korana Lasić wrote:
..... I simply charge my top rate of 0.15 In many years working with Italian agencies I have NEVER achieved that rate. There's a widespread, deepseated conviction in Italy that 0.15 is a laughably high rate that nobody ever gets; and the pressure is down, down, down.
Not that I am comparing myself to you, I know I have a lot to learn.
My 0.15 per word jobs are very specific last-minute jobs. This rate covers a great deal of overtime and stress, and I can avoid the mess of "calculating" emergency job -- I hate to say a rush job since I wouldn't do a rush job even on a rush job deadline, I take pride in my work -- fees.
I do completely take your point, everyone's, about the race to the bottom when it comes to our rates. Believe me, I do. Please don't think I do get 0.15, but if PM wants me to pull off a translating stunt (in a good way), I will and they will pay 0.15 per word or find someone else. I'm making it a sort of "specialisation", one of the things that separate me from other translators.
I'm just trying different things, but the point about rates completely taken.
| | | | | if it were that simple for every language | Apr 18, 2020 |
I am only getting established, or trying, as a freelance, so my situation is entirely different than yours. I will quote for jobs and be turned down, only to be contacted and asked to now do the job in 5 days. Precisely because I don't want to introduce too many variables, like short deadline rates, I simply charge my top rate of 0.15 whereas I'd be willing to do the same job, one month ago and with a reasonable deadline, for 0.10. I also would consider lowering my rate by 0.1 for white goods ma... See more I am only getting established, or trying, as a freelance, so my situation is entirely different than yours. I will quote for jobs and be turned down, only to be contacted and asked to now do the job in 5 days. Precisely because I don't want to introduce too many variables, like short deadline rates, I simply charge my top rate of 0.15 whereas I'd be willing to do the same job, one month ago and with a reasonable deadline, for 0.10. I also would consider lowering my rate by 0.1 for white goods manuals, but not for legal, medical, IT, literary translations...etc
I do understand you might have the luxury to simply turn down rush jobs, also not do the white goods manuals at all, but as a someone new at working with and trough outsourcers I simply have to start from somewhere and work work work, I need the experience and the networking.
The English-Italian pair is maybe THE MOST saturated in the world. And for that reason (?..) agencies from all over the world think you can/have to work for peanuts. So I stand with Tom, with Italians there is NO WAY to achieve those rates. I sometimes "reduce" mine to 0,07 to get some interesting jobs, and they keep telling me they are way too high, regardless of my expertise or my quality. So we don't even reach the point of negotiating short deadlines, rush jobs and so on. The thing is, as long as there are people (and there are many, alas) that accept to work for 0,02 - 0,01 cent we are cut off, and the entire category pays for it. Of course, if we speak of quality, I think that it doesn't live there.....
[Edited at 2020-04-18 15:44 GMT]
[Edited at 2020-04-18 15:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2020-04-19 05:25 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paul Dixon 
Brazil
Local time: 11:13
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Terrible situation | Apr 18, 2020 |
The situation in Brazil is desperately bad, even at the best of times requests for 90% discounts are not uncommon (and this was before covid). The market is übersaturated and people who lose their jobs in other areas (and can speak some English) come into the translation market without qualifications and push rates down. This will not improve until the translation market is regulated.
Regarding this issue, this already happens here. Once a translation agency asked for a discount of two ce... See more The situation in Brazil is desperately bad, even at the best of times requests for 90% discounts are not uncommon (and this was before covid). The market is übersaturated and people who lose their jobs in other areas (and can speak some English) come into the translation market without qualifications and push rates down. This will not improve until the translation market is regulated.
Regarding this issue, this already happens here. Once a translation agency asked for a discount of two cents, I said that I could only give a discount of one cent (the situation here is so desperate that I had to give a discount or go hungry). Even so, never heard from them again.
The big problem is that we don't understand that the TRANSLATOR should set the price and NOT the agency. (Imagine going to a lawyer and saying, I can only pay xx an hour. Surely the lawyer will then say, but I charge xxxx. We either pay what the lawyer charges or lose the client. So why shouldn't translators be like lawyers?) We must be strong and NEVER give discounts. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Principles in practice | Apr 18, 2020 |
Last month, a European agency client of mine (very significant income share) requested a 10% decrease on my fees due for invoicing in March (end of month + 30-day credit). In other words, they were asking for a gift of a few hundred euros to help their business through these times.
Instead, I offered to invoice only half of the work performed in March, split the Mars jobs left uninvoiced + the April jobs in half and invoice that at the end of this month, etc. until we're back to normal.... See more Last month, a European agency client of mine (very significant income share) requested a 10% decrease on my fees due for invoicing in March (end of month + 30-day credit). In other words, they were asking for a gift of a few hundred euros to help their business through these times.
Instead, I offered to invoice only half of the work performed in March, split the Mars jobs left uninvoiced + the April jobs in half and invoice that at the end of this month, etc. until we're back to normal.
As an introduction, I disclosed that my wife works (well, worked) in the event industry and the education industry. That set the tone pretty unambiguously.
I can understand company cash flow issues due to this abrupt covid halt. They certainly could understand my goodwill and the additional risk I take.
And it looks like they did.
I therefore invoiced half of the job value completed in March. Business with this agency has decreased in April, but I tend to think it is not retaliation for not giving away my money, "only" a temporary lack of opportunities in my specialties.
To emphasize that individuals are not necessarily in a better position than agencies asking them to make an effort:
State assistance in these challenging times seems to be mainly directed at companies and employees, which make the bulk of any country's growth.
As self-employed workers, we hardly ever tick all the requirements to file for public allowances when times are rough.
I know I don't: my business didn't fall by 75% compared to the average income between September and February, and I can't ask for the 660-euro monthly allowance. I don't have any mortgage or loan to pay back, so no help from there either.
As far as I am concerned, I'd better keep on working at full rates, and not expect, or need, any financial help from anybody.
Companies have more at stake to be heard and helped. Asking freelancers to fund them is not right.
However, each of us has their own constraints and I would certainly not advise anybody one way or the other. But when you do a business a favour, you need to ensure it is rewarded at its fair value, intangible or otherwise, at some point.
I'm working today. It's the weekend, so it's 50% extra. Covid or no covid, I value my weekends.
Philippe ▲ Collapse
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Never give discounts, says translator who just said he did.
I’d put my price up, says translator who just said he has never been able to achieve a good rate, and must therefore be giving a permanent discount.
You’ll never get your price up again, says translator who doesn’t give discounts and so presumably has never tried.
All make good points, don’t get me wrong, but I’m not sure it’s the best advice.
I don’t do discounts either,... See more Never give discounts, says translator who just said he did.
I’d put my price up, says translator who just said he has never been able to achieve a good rate, and must therefore be giving a permanent discount.
You’ll never get your price up again, says translator who doesn’t give discounts and so presumably has never tried.
All make good points, don’t get me wrong, but I’m not sure it’s the best advice.
I don’t do discounts either, but I say:
There’s nothing wrong with giving a discount if you really need the work. It’s entirely up to you.
But I would also say that my admittedly limited experience in this area is that playing hardball doesn’t work. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:13
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Chris S wrote:
You’ll never get your price up again, says translator who doesn’t give discounts and so presumably has never tried.
A very fair point! I have never tried in translation. The background to my possibly false certainty is that I spent 20 years covering a variety of companies, from software developers to auto manufacturers. The points they all agreed on were (1) once you cut a price it never goes back up, (2) the general direction of pricing is always down, and (3) you can only "reset" a price by introducing a "new and improved" product of some kind.
Those companies were mainly Japanese, and none operated in translation. So yes, I could be wrong, but the risk-reward ratio (in which the risk is that the price remains at the discounted level and the reward is a better relationship with the client) doesn't look favourable to me. Especially if you only have a small number of clients.
Dan
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 22:13
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Can you afford it? | Apr 18, 2020 |
1. Can you afford to reduce your rate?
2. Can you afford to not reduce your rate?
For what it's worth, I don't buy the COVID argument. I can see a drop in the amount of money available manifesting itself in less work being available (which is also what I think will happen in a world with mandated minimum rate), but I don't see a legitimate reason to ask for a reduction in rate.
But at the end of the day, that doesn't concern you. The questions you need to ask your... See more 1. Can you afford to reduce your rate?
2. Can you afford to not reduce your rate?
For what it's worth, I don't buy the COVID argument. I can see a drop in the amount of money available manifesting itself in less work being available (which is also what I think will happen in a world with mandated minimum rate), but I don't see a legitimate reason to ask for a reduction in rate.
But at the end of the day, that doesn't concern you. The questions you need to ask yourself are:
1. Is your rate competitive enough to allow you to stay in business?
2. Will your state of existence be better or worse if you reduced your rate, whether for a single project or for a client?
I have given discounts and I have played hardball, so I suppose I'm qualified to talk about both sides of the fence. I would accept a discount if there is a project I want to land, and if in my judgment I risk not landing that project by sticking to my standard rate. I would also accept a discount if there are tangible benefits that, in my opinion, generate enough value to make up for the money that I am missing out on. These are things that companies and businesses do all the time in every industry.
Cases in point:
1. In 2017 one of my regular clients approached me for a project and asked me to reduce my rate for that project. It was a firm offer for a major title, and the word count was six digits. I accepted and I have been working on the continuation of that project for 3 years now; I even remind the client if they accidentally issued a PO for my normal rate.
2. Last month I was approached by an indie game developer for a quote and I offered them a discounted quote, making it clear that it was below my standard rate. They felt it was too high and went with somebody else at first, but came back when they realized 'somebody else' wasn't very good. This is an end client with all the extra work that comes with end clients, but I recoup the cost partly from not doing CAT discounts, and more importantly, permission to freely advertise my participation. It seemed unlikely that an independent developer would be willing to pay significantly more for my services, and felt I was definitely better off having landed this project at a discount than not having it at all.
3. Also last month I was approached by an author who wanted to translate her novel into Chinese and self-publish it – almost certainly a vanity project that has no chance of turning a profit. I offered a discount from my standard end-client fee because, again, I have permission to list it on my resume, I got to spread the 50k words over two months, and, well, I know a thing or two about vanity projects that don't make any money, so I'm somewhat sympathetic.
4. On the hardball side of things, I strictly play hardball with my Chinese to English rate. Not many companies are willing to pay my rate for gaming translation in that pair, but there is one company that is, and they have threatened to deprive me of all my free time if I let them. This field is a small world and my clients and prospective clients regularly bid against each other on the same projects that they want me to do. Therefore, I do not entertain any negotiations on this rate from prospective clients, not just because I can fully occupy my schedule at my standard rate, but even more importantly because I don't want to be in a position where I'm hoping one client gets a bid over another, or end up doing the same work for a client who pays worse. I'm not going to go out of my way to favor my Most Valuable Client in their bids, but the least I can do is to make sure that if another client landed the project, it's not because they offered a cheaper quote by treating me worse than the MVC.
I've gone off on quite the tangent here, but going back to the topic at hand, if you determine that you cannot afford to not reduce your rate, and you don't want to play a game of chicken, why not try to get something of value in exchange that would not cost them much to give? A glowing review on your profile page? Express permission to mention that you did work for some of their clients (within reason)? Maybe even a recommendation letter, for applying to those agencies stupid enough to ask for references? It may not be entirely ethical to "buy" a recommendation for a pay cut, but it's as victimless a crime as it gets, and if you ask me, it's more ethical than to accept a rate cut without getting something in exchange.
[Edited at 2020-04-18 20:16 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I understand | Apr 18, 2020 |
Elena Aclasto wrote:
The English-Italian pair is maybe THE MOST saturated in the world. And for that reason (?..) agencies from all over the world think you can/have to work for peanuts. So I stand with Tom, with Italians there is NO WAY to achieve those rates. I sometimes "reduce" mine to 0,07 to get some interesting jobs, and they keep telling me they are way too high, regardless of my expertise or my quality. So we don't even reach the point of negotiating short deadlines, rush jobs and so on. The thing is, as long as there are people (and there are many, alas) that accept to work of 0,02 - 0,01 cent we are cut off, and the entire category pays for it. Of course, if we speak of quality, I think that it doesn't live there.....
[Edited at 2020-04-18 15:44 GMT]
[Edited at 2020-04-18 15:45 GMT]
Hi Elena, point taken. Oh, do not get me started on the problems in my language pair. We do not have the kind of time it would take to discuss only the linguistic and business problems Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian language is plagued with. The problems that the corruption and bad politics, as well as the moral, intellectual, ethical, and financial bankruptcy of the region where it is spoken, are bringing about...Before we would even get to the problems of translating from these three (that are one) language(s) into English. Believe me, I know the struggle.
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Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:13
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Still grabbing jobs, actually | Apr 18, 2020 |
Korana Lasić wrote:
I do understand you might have the luxury to simply turn down rush jobs.
Well, yes and no. It is very unusual for me to turn down a job, even if it means putting up with some antisocial hours. I make a virtue of being available for work and responding quickly, and sometimes end up working harder than I would ideally like. But you can do a huge amount in 24 hours if you really need to (was it Abraham Lincoln who said that 24 hours is two 8-hour days with 8 hours of sleep in between?) so I almost never get into serious difficulties with deadlines.
A couple of days ago I wanted to do some non-work things that occupied nearly all of the day, and as a freelancer I am of course free to organise my time as I see fit. The flip side was that I didn't manage to completing and send off the project I was working on until just before the 1 a.m. deadline (9 a.m. in Tokyo).
After finishing a late job I nearly always listen to music to unwind before I make my way to bed, so I was still at my PC a few minutes later when by coincidence I got an urgent request for a large job from a different agency in Japan for a very prestigious end client. I was able to answer within seconds and lock down that project rather than see it offered to some other translator while I slept. That's a decent amount of money, and it these uncertain times - and with a family to feed - I want to generate as much revenue as I can, so again I didn't turn it down.
Frequent late nights are not a lifestyle I would go out of my way to recommend, but it tends to happen if you accept lots of projects, but also like to use your time during the daylight hours for other things - time with the family, fishing, long walks, working in the woodland or the garden.
So while some of us may in theory have the luxury of rejecting jobs, I suspect the extent to which each of us does so is determined largely by our temperament and our state of mind at the time of the interaction.
Regards,
Dan
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Emi B wrote:
Hello,
I had a request from my agency regarding Covid 19 (corona virus).
They ask me to manage to lower the rate (1 or 2 cents).
I understand but we don't know how long this circumstance continues, maybe years ... and it is not easy to increase our rate.
So I don't really agree with that.
What do you think ?
As others have said, it's entirely possible (likely) that the agency is using this crisis to try to push down translators' rates. There's no way you can know for sure, but if they're saying something like "can you lower your rate so we can continue to give you work?", they're not actually asking - they're telling you.
If you feel like you can't lose them at this point, could you say something like "I agree to lower my rate by 1 cent UNTIL May 30th"? Then after the period is over, you can point to your written agreement, see if they honour it, and at that point reassess whether you want to continue with them or not .
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Dan Lucas wrote:
Abraham Lincoln who said that 24 hours is two 8-hour days with 8 hours of sleep in between?
I absolutely love that quote. So true as well.
Regarding the rest, I really mean it when I say that I find the input from people on this forum very valuable. I am learning so much as well as finding the inspiration I need to settle on a model of doing this that will hopefully work for me. I do not consider a minute spent on the forum time wasted. So, thank you, Dan, as one of the regular contributors you've helped me a lot.
| | | | Emi B
France
Local time: 16:13
French to Japanese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you everyone for many comments. It helped me a lot.
The clients are limiting their translation requests or looking for lower pricing. So they want to be more competitive.
It was the reason.
But we can never know exactly what happen and it's not sure if we can get our current price later...
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DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
| Wolves' compromise | Apr 19, 2020 |
Because? I doubt those agencies suffered from the pandemic more than translators have, so when should we expect intermediaries to offer anti-crisis rates? At minimum five cents extra/word flat would do nicely.
"What female heart can gold despise?
What cat's averse to fish?" (Thomas Gray)
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