ascendance chronologique - timeframe ( translation glossary) Architectural Description,Historia,Otros

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Término o frase en francés:	ascendance chronologique
Traducción al inglés:	timeframe
Aportado por:	femme

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23:36 Jan 21, 2008

Traducciones de francés a inglés [PRO]
Historia / Architectural Description

Término o frase en francés: ascendance chronologique

In a description of San Claudio Chapel. I'm drawing a blank on the best way to state this phrase, given the context. They are talking about trying to determine just when the chapel was built, I believe.

Contexte:

"Si les voûtes d'arêtes ont fait penser au style roman, la volumétrie de l'ensemble, indépendamment de l'antéglise ou solium ajouté par la suite, exige une **ascendance chronologique** différente, parce que l'assemblage rythmique et la superposition de 10 absides et 16 croisées, produit une masse composée de manière classique et substantiellement respecteuse du rapport de la reglè d'or des proportions entre la base et la hauteur."

Merci beaucoup!

femme

femme Actividad en KudoZ Preguntas hechas: 450 (12 abiertas:) (9 without valid answers) (19 closed without grading) Respuestas: 364 Estados Unidos
Local time: 10:40

Clarification request(s) and response

femme: 00:47 Jan 22, 2008: Yes, Bourth-to answer your questions, that is what this book is about. Excellent translation you've offered-thanks.

timeframe

Explicación:
I think it will work without a qualifyng adjective since the context makes it clear, but you could say any number of things, I suppose:

- constructional timeframe
- inspirational timeframe
- conceptual timeframe
- architectural timeframe
- stylistic timeframe, etc.

It's not clear to me if they are saying this place WAS built at such-and-such a time, using the customs of the time, or simply LOOKS AS IF IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN built at that time, having taken inspiration and architectural elements from that time. Hence my hesitation over a qualifying adjective.

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Note added at 39 mins (2008-01-22 00:16:27 GMT)
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Is this about determining the authenticity of Aix la Chapelle as Charlemagne's Aix? A brief look at the web (haven't read in detail) suggests that some think his Aix was in fact in Italy and that legend transposed it to "Aix la Chapelle" for political reasons. Is this "chapelle San Claudio" in Italy? And are there doubts about ITS historical authenticity?
Puzzled.

Respuesta elegida de:

Bourth
Francia
Local time: 19:40

Nota de quien pregunta a quien contesta

Thank you very much!
4 puntos KudoZ otorgados a esta respuesta

RESUMEN DE TODAS LAS RESPUESTAS DADAS EN INGLÉS

4 +6

timeframe

Bourth

5 +1

chronological ancestry

Chris Hall

4 +1

architectural lineage

Christopher Crockett

chronological provenance

Carol Gullidge

3 +1

historical genealogy

MatthewLaSon

chronological line

mightydem

Respuestas

8 minutos Nivel de confianza:

Coincidencias de otros usuarios (netas) +1

chronological ancestry

Explicación:
This seems to work with the tone of the sentence.

Chris Hall
Reino Unido
Local time: 18:40
Trabaja en este campo
Idioma materno: inglés

32 minutos Nivel de confianza:

Coincidencias de otros usuarios (netas) +6

timeframe

Bourth
Francia
Local time: 19:40
Idioma materno: inglés
Pts. PRO en la categoría: 116

Nota de quien pregunta a quien contesta

Thank you very much!

1 hora Nivel de confianza:

Coincidencias de otros usuarios (netas) +1

historical genealogy

Explicación:
Hello,

I"ve seen this used before. They are referring to the historical genealogy of the church. They want to go back in history to trace its roots.

By the way, genealogy isn't just used for tracing the lineage of people.

I hope this helps.

Referencia: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel12.html

MatthewLaSon
Estados Unidos
Local time: 13:40
Trabaja en este campo
Idioma materno: inglés

6 horas Nivel de confianza:

chronological line

Explicación:
just like that. It follows the tone of the text.

mightydem
Argentina
Local time: 15:40
Especializado en este campo
Idioma materno: español

10 horas Nivel de confianza:

chronological provenance

Explicación:
this fits!

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
a post office, a school and a chapel. Changes to the appearance of buildings ..... but it is not possible to confirm their precise chronological provenance. ...
www.tynedale.gov.uk/residents/showdesc.asp?id=221

Rabbinic Law in Its Roman and Near Eastern Context - Google Books Result

by Catherine Hezser - 2003 - Religion - 310 pages
61 While the exact chronological provenance of these fictions cannot always be determined, the fact that such statements are already attested in the ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=3161480716...

[DOC]

Supplemental Information (Part A)

File Format: Microsoft Word - View as HTML
In terms of specific date bias, virtually all the bones from AK-YT in museums have no stratigraphic or chronological provenance. Within species, bones were ...
www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7090/extref/nature04604... - Similar pages

Kuru kings, Tura Ka:vas 1eya, and the -tva{ya gerund

Regarding the chronological provenance of this liturgical material there. are two possibilities; either it was in existence at the time the RV collections ...
journals.cambridge.org/article_S0041977X03000120 - Similar pages

The Monarchic Principle: Studies in Jewish Self-Government in ... - Google Books Result

by David M. Goodblatt - 1994 - Religion
In determining the chronological provenance of the rabbinic traditions I adopt the following procedure. The date of a document in which the source appears ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=3161461762...

Carol Gullidge
Reino Unido
Local time: 18:40
Especializado en este campo
Idioma materno: inglés
Pts. PRO en la categoría: 27

14 horas Nivel de confianza:

Coincidencias de otros usuarios (netas) +1

architectural lineage

Explicación:
The only way I could get at the sense of it was to try and translate the whole thing (sorry):

Although the groin vaults are suggestive of Romanesque, the volumetric arrangement --aside from the forechurch [or "Westwerk," if that's what it is] or "solium" [I've never seen this word, btw], which was added later-- suggests a different architectural lineage, its rythmic assembly of the forms of the 10 apses and 16 bays producing a quite "classical" massing which shows a respect for the Golden Rule in the proportions of the ground plan relative to the elevation.

----

On SOLIUM (O.E.D.):

Obsolete.

[< Latin, _solium_.]

A seat, throne.

13th c. : He sete on Salamones solie, on solemne wyse.
1678 : Fro e soly of his solempnete, his solace he leues.

As I say, I've never seen this word in the Art Hysterical literature (including that in French), the OED says it's "obsolete," it's unknown to the _Tresor de la langue francaise_ and I can't find a website which uses it in an architectural context, so I wouldn't use it in the translation (it could be this author's "invention").

I know what he's driving at, however, since the massive "Westwerks" (the German term appears in both the English and French literature) at the front (West) end of many Carolingian, Ottonnian and even Romanesque churches originally served (it is thought) primarily to house an upper chapel where, on significant liturgical ocassions, the Emperor (or his surrogate, a prince, bishop or abbot) would sit (enthrowned), watching the proceedings in the choir, down the length of the nave, through large windows or an arcade in the East wall of the Westwerk.

So, your "solium" here is a kind of "throneroom" (though I certainly wouldn't use that word, either).

Some nice examples of Westwerken are at the bottome of this page:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westwerk

The *massive* one at Corvey:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika:Corvey_Westwerk.png

and here's an example of your "solium," seen from the East:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/a/ae/K%C3%B6ln_Pant...

I assume that your "San Claudio Chapel" (wherever that is) had some kind of (perhaps rather modest) Westwerk --or, perhaps the chapel was *in* the Westwerk??

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Note added at 14 hrs (2008-01-22 14:02:13 GMT)
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Strickly speaking, I assume that the plural of Westwerk is Westwerken, so don't use that "Westwerks" which I did.

Do as I say do, not as I did.

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Note added at 14 hrs (2008-01-22 14:04:47 GMT)
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And, the Emperor was "enthroned," rather than "enthrowned."

I *hate* it when that happens.

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Note added at 14 hrs (2008-01-22 14:09:07 GMT)
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I've convinced myself of the essential Rightness of my answer, and would like to change my Confidence Level to a 5.

But don't see any way to do that....

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Note added at 15 hrs (2008-01-22 14:41:09 GMT)
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Note to Carol:

I objected to your use of "provenance" in this context because, in Art History, that word has a rather specific use:

[OED]

PROVENANCE

3. The history of the ownership of a work of art or an antique, used as a guide to authenticity or quality; a documented record of this.
A distinction is sometimes drawn between the ‘origin’ and the ‘provenance’ of an article, as in quot. 1960.

1867 Times 7 Sept. 12/4 Other studies for Titian's ‘Battle of Cadore’ are extant, and their ‘provenance’ from the late Dr. Wellesley's collection is strongly in favour of their authenticity. 1926 J. BUCHAN Dancing Floor I. vi. 111 If I knew the provenance of the manuscript, I might be able to understand it better. 1946 ‘M. INNES’ From London Far II. x. 146 That aspect of the history of art which collectors call provenance? Who owned the picture last..and who before that. The ideal is to trace it right back to the studio.
1960 E. A. LOWE Eng. Uncial 21 A Canterbury origin is probable, Canterbury provenance is certain. 1967 J. N. BARRON Lang. of Painting 156 Provenance, a history or pedigree of a painting: the establishment of the identity of successive owners since its execution. Also included would be all published documents, catalogues, and journals that contain references to the painting, along with reproductions, exhibitions, and sales records, as well as correspondence, especially of the artist, in which mention of it may be made. 1989 L. DEIGHTON Spy Line xv. 208, I know what he's after: a written statement about the clock's condition and history. That sort of provenance affects the price in auction. 2003 Wired July 43/3 A panel of experts..declined to authenticate the canvas. Without knowing its provenance..they can't be sure Horton's find is legit.

In an Art Historical context, oOur text is speaking of a "lineage," not a "provenance."

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Note added at 15 hrs (2008-01-22 14:55:36 GMT)
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Here's the TLF:

ASCENDANCE:

Ligne généalogique par laquelle on remonte du fils au père, du père à l'aïeul, etc....

P. méton. Généalogie, lignée d'ancêtres...

In an Art Historical context, I prefer to translate "ascendance chronologique" as "lineage" (the "chronologique" is understood).

Art Hysterians frequently speak of an "architectural [or stylistic] lineage" --which is *definitely* not the same as a "provenance," or even an "origin."

The terms differ perhaps only slightly in general usage, but within the Discipline there is a sure technical distinction between them.

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Note added at 15 hrs (2008-01-22 15:16:10 GMT)
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Don't believe everything you see on the web.

Regarding Carol's references, a Google turns up a paltry *89* hits for the "chronological provenance," not a *one* of them appearing in an Art Historical context.

Specifically, this one

www.tynedale.gov.uk/residents/showdesc.asp?id=221

is just plain *wrong* in its use of the term "provenance" :

"There will be buildings of a similar age in Ovington and buildings that possibly incorporate remnants of even earlier structures, but it is not possible to confirm their precise chronological provenance."

Here the town council bureaucrat clearly means the chronological "sequence" of the buildings, not their "provenance."

Contrary to what the Red Queen (or was it the Catapillar??) said, Words do have Meanings.

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Note added at 16 hrs (2008-01-22 16:23:08 GMT)
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Well, Carol, my "refs" are mostly buried in my 40 years experience as a (medieval) Art Historian, which I tend to trust just a *bit* more than a paltry number of Googled websites, written by unknown folks of dubious educational background who, apparently, share your Red Queenis/Caterpillar (I never can remember which one it was) view that "Words Mean Whatever I Say They Mean."

Au contraire, ma frere, Words have (or *can* have/*should* have) very precise Meanings, especially when used within the context of a particular Discipline.

As is the case with femme's source --which I take to be a more or less serious study of an interesting and complex Art Hysterical Question (as opposed to, say, some ephemeral Tourist Brochure).

Referencia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westwerk
Referencia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/a/ae/K%C3%B6ln_Pant...

Christopher Crockett
Estados Unidos
Local time: 13:40
Especializado en este campo
Idioma materno: inglés
Pts. PRO en la categoría: 92

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francés: ascendance chronologique

inglés translation: timeframe