| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Translation degree vs. other degree vs. no degree Thread poster: Catherine Bolton
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| Here's what Samuel Clemens said about it... | Jul 26, 2006 |
"Don't let schooling hinder your education."
Or words to that effect. The point is that ultimately we educate ourselves. You simply cannot put an equal sign between the concepts of "formal training" and "education."
My two cents.
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Konstantin Kisin wrote:
In general, degrees are becoming increasingly a piece of paper to wave about. During my non-linguistic studies (Economics & Politics) this was certainly my impression and that of my fellow students.
May I ask what your degree is in, and why you work as a translator instead?
[Edited at 2006-07-26 21:51]
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 15:10
French to English
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| degree or not degree... | Jul 26, 2006 |
There is a lot that I could say on this subject but I'll try to be brief:
1) some translation/interpretation courses are longer, more complete and generally better than others
2) it is not because you have a degree in a language that you can speak it or master it entirely
3) there is nothing to replace experience
4) some of the best translators/interpreters never studied the subject as such .
1) In some countries courses last several years and include in-dept... See more There is a lot that I could say on this subject but I'll try to be brief:
1) some translation/interpretation courses are longer, more complete and generally better than others
2) it is not because you have a degree in a language that you can speak it or master it entirely
3) there is nothing to replace experience
4) some of the best translators/interpreters never studied the subject as such .
1) In some countries courses last several years and include in-depth studies of subjects such as legal, finance, agriculture, economics, etc. In others they last the equivalent of 6 months (a so-called university "year")
2) It was not until I came to live in France that I started to become really familiar with the language as it is spoken and to understand the nuts and bolts of everyday life that you need to recognise to do a proper translation - this is just by way of example.
3) Experience means not just studying in theory but learning on the job. When I worked for an international organisation, I made it my business to talk to delegates, go on technical visits, ask questions, build up a network of contacts. It has always stood me in good stead. You don't get that within five minutes of falling out of college with the ink on your diploma still wet. Some people even think that the diploma is the be-all-and-end-all and that they don't need to learn more after that. NUTS!
4) Some if not most of you are too young to remember the time when there were no interpreting schools and no-one to teach you. The job got done just the same. One of the most famous interpreters in Paris circles was a woman called Seleskovic and she, though renowned in her field, never studied interpreting...She taught it later however.
As a (ex)senior staffer in an international association, I can assure you that the young newly qualified graduates that we took on over the years were of little use to man or beast for the first few YEARS. They still had their apprenticeship to serve. And they had the advantage of working with experienced professionals, their work was systematically checked and they interpreted with a senior in the booth. If you have any idea of the time we spent on redoing their translations and discussing them with them, the number of times we had to bail them out in the booth (you couldn't even nip out to the loo!). But this is only normal and it is now their turn to the same thing for other newbies.
So basically what I'm saying is, a course is useful (I did one of the early very basic ones and would have sworn I had learned nothing but later I realised that wasn't so) but it is not the end of the story. And do not decry those without formal training: some of them do a better job than those with a wad of diplomas.
There's nothing wrong with a doctor/lawyer/accountant etc turned translator. What would be wrong would be for every doctor who speaks a language to imagine that automatically gives him or her the edge as a translator. And the same for accountants, lawyers and the rest.
In the end there is no fixed rulew: just good and bad translators/interpreters, some that will improve and others that will always be also-rans.
And that is a general reflection of the way life is! ▲ Collapse
| | | | BAmary (X) 
Canada
Local time: 09:10
English to Spanish
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| It was a joke | Jul 26, 2006 |
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
What I said was that I doubt it's possible to learn a language at University to the point of fluency. Of course, a determined and talented student will take private lessons, go to countries where the language is spoken etc but generally I don't see it as a good way of learning a language. I also didn't say anything about 12 years ago...things can change with time.
I agree with that. You don't learn a language at university. In fact, the university I attended required students to take a language exam before being admitted, so if you could not speak/write and didn't know the grammar of your second language, you were not admitted. You started your training as a translator from there up.
The 12-year thing was a joke because I got my degree 12 years ago.
To Glossarist: Keats died in 1821. I don't think creative writing degrees even existed at the time. If they had, he would have probably had one!
Besides, writing is something totally different. I was talking about translation.
[Edited at 2006-07-26 19:33]
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Rosa Maria Duenas Rios (X)
Local time: 09:10
| A person with a degree does not equal a professional translator | Jul 26, 2006 |
BAmary wrote:
But I have noticed that there are so many translators without degrees in this community that I'm starting to wonder why the rest of us bothered...
Hello BAmary,
I believe that what causes the argument here seems to be the fact that you are equalling 'obtention of a degree' (in any discipline) with 'being professional'.
The above is not the same in any field, including translation. I have met a lot of people with degrees who are not professional at all. They do not answer their calls or messages, they do not listen or follow instructions, they cannot get organized, they do not deliver in time, they do not produce quality work, they do not know how to work as a team, they do not act responsibly, they have no respect for others, they cannot balance their checkbooks, they do not know how to 'market' themselves, the list would be almost endless...
In my personal case, I consider myself a professional, even though I do not have formal translation studies. I have a BA in journalism, I started translating as part of one of the many jobs I had in the past, took a serious interest in the activity, and only then started looking into translation training; I am now certified by two translator associations. (It might surprise you that one of the very few translation courses available in Mexico rejected my application on the basis that I "already knew too much"; I then asked them to hire me as teacher, but they also refused.)
But my training is only PART of what makes me a professional. And the reason for which my clients keep coming back is not only my translation abilities (there are a lot of excellent translators in my pairs), but all those other features that make people truly professionals.
IMHO, the quality problems in the Kudoz section (as well as in the jobs section) arise from the fact that Proz.com is not a "site for professionals" (as it is wrongly stated at the top of the home page); this has been brought up several times by many colleagues. Unfortunately, given the responses we have had in the past, and since it seems that this is a "site-policy related problem" (as a colleague rightfully noted on the other thread), I am not very optimistic that it will be solved any time soon.
My decision, in the end, will boil down to: do I want to continue being part of this mixed community in which one finds all sorts of souls, with its problems and advantages, or will I come to a point where I will start looking for another, truly professional site (if one exists).
[Edited at 2006-07-26 19:56]
| | | | Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 15:10
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
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SITE LOCALIZER | additional dimension | Jul 26, 2006 |
is the field of expertise, like legal, marketing scientific. Reminds me very much of the "X-informatiker" issue in Germany, where X could stand for public services, internet mechandising, banking, particle physics, pizza delivery systems ...
Possibly this additional dimension applies to just one piece of real estate in the general translation landscape.... But it is for sure a very important one, actually the one, where probably we all, more or less comfortably, are situated.
... See more is the field of expertise, like legal, marketing scientific. Reminds me very much of the "X-informatiker" issue in Germany, where X could stand for public services, internet mechandising, banking, particle physics, pizza delivery systems ...
Possibly this additional dimension applies to just one piece of real estate in the general translation landscape.... But it is for sure a very important one, actually the one, where probably we all, more or less comfortably, are situated.
What kind of an X-translator (from Y to Z) is a person anyways, without a solid X up front? Believe me, I could tell horror stories about that...
[Edited at 2006-07-26 19:55] ▲ Collapse
| | | | BAmary (X)
Canada
Local time: 09:10
English to Spanish
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| Each case is particular | Jul 26, 2006 |
Rosa Maria Duenas Rios wrote:
In my personal case, I consider myself a professional, even though I do not have formal translation studies. I have a BA in journalism, I started translating as part of one of the many jobs I had in the past, took a serious interest in the activity, and only then started looking into translation training; I am now certified by two translator associations. (It might surprise you that one of the very few translation courses available in Mexico rejected my application on the basis that I "already knew too much"; I then asked them to hire me as teacher, but they also refused.)
So you do have language training. I'm not talking about professionalism in the way you describe it. Of course there are people who attended school and are terrible anyway and that happens in all fields.
But what I ask myself after two translation degrees and many, many specialization courses and seminars, is how come there are people who believe that speaking two languages, being specialized in another subject (law, medicine, or whatever), but not having any language training or 20 years of experience (because it’s true that 30 years ago there were no translation schools) automatically turn them into translators (and I see it every day here in Canada, land of immigrants, where some people arrive and because they don’t have a job they offer their services as translators!).
For any profession you need some formal training, specialization and experience. A couple of weeks ago I saw the profile of a Spanish-speaking engineer who had written Santa Fé (with an accent on the "e"). So that’s what I’m talking about. I’m not condemning ALL the people in this community who don’t have a translation degree. I’m just saying that, in my opinion, and after all the time and effort I put into building my career, I find it odd that so many people who have never set foot on a translation school are working as translators. I don't mean to say that all of them are good for nothing. I'm just saying I would like our profession to be respected and this general belief that you don’t need formal training to be a translator brings it down quite a lot.
| | | | Catherine Bolton
Local time: 15:10
Italian to English
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TOPIC STARTER In memoriam | Generation gap? | Jul 26, 2006 |
BAmary wrote:
because it’s true that 30 years ago there were no translation schools
I think you need to take that into account. You can hardly say that anyone who did not get a degree in translation is not a professional.
I will grant you that a lot people are convinced that knowing two languages is sufficient. By the same token, I have revised translations by people with degrees in translation who didn't have the slightest idea about punctuation. To make things worse, many don't even bother to use the spell-checker before turning in their work.
If I were an agency (which I'm not), I'd choose Rosa Maria, who has a degree in journalism AND experience, over some kid fresh out of translation school.
I'm not saying that your investment in however many translation degrees you have has been wasted. I'm saying that others who have DIFFERENT experience are equally worthy of being called PROFESSIONALS.
The fact that this site doesn't cater strictly to professionals is another matter.
Catherine
[Edited at 2006-07-26 20:55]
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BAmary (X)
Canada
Local time: 09:10
English to Spanish
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| That's not what I mean | Jul 26, 2006 |
cbolton wrote:
You can hardly say that anyone who did not get a degree in translation is not a professional.
That's not what I'm saying, Catherine. I have a lot of respect for other professionals and I know the translation degree is a fairly new one. What I'm trying to point out here is that:
1) the percentage of non-translators doing translation work is amazingly high.
2) many of them don't have any training whatsoever in language (they have other degrees and they speak two languages).
3) I firmly believe that training in the language field is important for any person who wants to translate.
4) I'm not generalizing and I already said it like eight times in my postings.
5) I don't consider my studies were a waste of time. I did my specialization in Law and that's the only field I work in.
| | | | | Definition of translator/Supply and demand | Jul 26, 2006 |
I think one thing to clear up might be how we define translator. Is it simply a person who sometimes takes things from one language and puts them into another? Is it someone who does that for money? Is it someone who gets the majority of their income from translation? If we use the first idea, then it's hard to imagine how anyone who is a "non-translator" could engage in translation work. It's part of the definition. If some of us view it like that, it means that there is a fundamental dif... See more I think one thing to clear up might be how we define translator. Is it simply a person who sometimes takes things from one language and puts them into another? Is it someone who does that for money? Is it someone who gets the majority of their income from translation? If we use the first idea, then it's hard to imagine how anyone who is a "non-translator" could engage in translation work. It's part of the definition. If some of us view it like that, it means that there is a fundamental difference in understanding between us and people who might want to apply a different definition.
As far as people setting themselves up as translators without training and just because they need a job, well, someone hires them, right? If clients are willing to take people on that basis, then maybe what we need to be doing is educating people so that as clients they will demand a higher standard.
There's also the unfortunate phenomenon of people asking for translations free simply because someone they know speaks both languages. Unfortunate because the level of translation is usually pretty low, and indicates a disrespect for the translating profession, and also because a lot of people (I've noticed this particularly among students) take on a favor like this not realizing how much work it will be. There is a positive end-result, though, which is that people who have "accidentally" taken on translation like this tend to have a much higher opinion of translators after!
For perspective, I'm currently finishing a degree in translation studies which I don't feel has prepared me at all to be a translator. I will be doing an official apprenticeship elsewhere next year. ▲ Collapse
| | | | sarahl (X)
Local time: 06:10
English to French
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| Is that a *translation* school? | Jul 26, 2006 |
Williamson wrote:
Nowadays at a some schools for translators you can learn not so common languages such as Chinese, Hungarian, Polish as one of your two foreign languages. At the end of your training you should be able to translate from your languages of choice, say Chinese/Spanish into your mother-tongue (according to the adepts of the mother-tongue only).
I know that for Chinese, there is an exchange program of a year at a Chinese university.
I call that a *language* school.
I was trained at a T&I school myself, and we didn't have a single language class. Actually, we had to demonstrate our proficiency in all our working languages as part of the admission process. What we did learn was translation and interpretation techniques, not the theory, not linguistics, the techniques themselves.
Also, I hate to upset your apple cart, Williamson, but I don't see what AIIC has to do with the learning process. AIIC interpreters are not necessarily better than non-AIIC.
| | | | | my two cents... | Jul 26, 2006 |
From my far side of the world...
I am a translator. I have university studies in translation and I work as such. I do believe the problem lies in the amount of people who do translations without being translators, those who do not understand its complexity, its depth, all it involves. The every day confusion between "speaking/knowing languages" and the art/skill translating actually is.
Of course, no university course of studies would magically transform anybody into anything. Const... See more From my far side of the world...
I am a translator. I have university studies in translation and I work as such. I do believe the problem lies in the amount of people who do translations without being translators, those who do not understand its complexity, its depth, all it involves. The every day confusion between "speaking/knowing languages" and the art/skill translating actually is.
Of course, no university course of studies would magically transform anybody into anything. Constant experience, neverending training, a professional attitude do.
Of course, people with no studies could be far greater translators than people who have a diploma. However, as mentioned before, we would not even need this forum if our degrees received the respect they deserve.
BAmary, all your posts are wonderful.
Williamson, I might be wrong, but I would not take a plane without a proper pilot neither would I ask them for a test before entering the plane:) Thank you for your post as well.
Regards,
Majo ▲ Collapse
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Irene N
United States
Local time: 08:10
English to Russian
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| I'm truly sorry but | Jul 26, 2006 |
Self-annointed conference interpreters stand a bigger chance of falling flat on their face in comparison to those who have been trained by professional (AIIC)-interpreters.
Edited at 2006-07-26 17:10]
it sounds like wishful thinking to me.
Let's do the assignment together and set overall day results as the only criterion.
Irene
| | | | Henry Hinds
United States
Local time: 07:10
English to Spanish
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In memoriam | Interesting Discussion | Jul 27, 2006 |
I don't have the time to follow it all, but I would say this:
1.- I don't disparage formal education, and the more, the better. But:
2.- Formal education alone cannot make a translator or a conference interpreter. It's only a beginning.
3.- Profound language knowledge is an absolute requirement, and formal education alone cannot provide such knowledge. It's only a beginning.
So what did I say?
Get a good education and start to learn from there, ... See more I don't have the time to follow it all, but I would say this:
1.- I don't disparage formal education, and the more, the better. But:
2.- Formal education alone cannot make a translator or a conference interpreter. It's only a beginning.
3.- Profound language knowledge is an absolute requirement, and formal education alone cannot provide such knowledge. It's only a beginning.
So what did I say?
Get a good education and start to learn from there, and don't ever stop. And always remember that the world is your school, and every day is a new opportunity to learn.
Plus this: In the final analysis we're all dead, but in the meantime we're all measured by RESULTS. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Henry Hinds
United States
Local time: 07:10
English to Spanish
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In memoriam
"Don't let schooling hinder your education."
Thanks for the quote, Kevin.
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