| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Rubbish in, rubbish out? Thread poster: adrienneiii
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Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 02:18
Chinese to English
| In defence of bad writing | Jul 25, 2014 |
OK, so not really a defence of bad writing. But a thought about what it means. When we translate a text, we typically say that we're translating the meaning, not the words. So if there's a problem with the words, that shouldn't matter, right?
It's not quite that simple, of course. Peter Newmark divides texts into three types, as I recall, something like informative, affective and authoritative. Authoritative texts are classics in which both content and form are relevant: literature ... See more OK, so not really a defence of bad writing. But a thought about what it means. When we translate a text, we typically say that we're translating the meaning, not the words. So if there's a problem with the words, that shouldn't matter, right?
It's not quite that simple, of course. Peter Newmark divides texts into three types, as I recall, something like informative, affective and authoritative. Authoritative texts are classics in which both content and form are relevant: literature of all kinds, basically. Affective texts are things like advertising, where the objective is a particular emotional effect. Of course the quality of the writing is important here, but the content is not - the translator can freely swap out similes and metaphors that don't work in the target language.
Informative texts, though - things like news reports or scientific papers - exist only to convey information. If that information was conveyed in the source language version, we must convey it in the target language version. It doesn't matter how well or badly it was conveyed by the author; and it doesn't actually matter how well or badly the translator conveys it. But we might as well convey it clearly, because that is our habit as professional writers.
So the argument would be that if you're translating an informative text, you should ignore how badly it's written - in fact, you should ignore how it's written at all. The only exception is if it's written so badly that it actually fails to convey information (clearly).
That doesn't preclude being annoyed by bad writers, though. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:18
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Phil Hand wrote:
........The only exception is if it's written so badly that it actually fails to convey information (clearly).
I get stuff like that to translate *all the time* - in fact it's my normal translator-fodder.
| | | | adrienneiii
United States
Local time: 11:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Many thanks for the wealth of responses. | Jul 26, 2014 |
Very helpful to know how others approach this, though clearly mileage varies. Before raising it with my client I wanted to know whether this was a ridiculous question or not - I'm a good linguist, editor, and writer, but not a trained translator. I'm learning as I go along.
Particular issues for me are translations (informative texts all, Phil) in which the source text has, say, 20 words where 12 would have done, even in the admittedly wordier source language. I am paid by target wo... See more Very helpful to know how others approach this, though clearly mileage varies. Before raising it with my client I wanted to know whether this was a ridiculous question or not - I'm a good linguist, editor, and writer, but not a trained translator. I'm learning as I go along.
Particular issues for me are translations (informative texts all, Phil) in which the source text has, say, 20 words where 12 would have done, even in the admittedly wordier source language. I am paid by target word, so it is to my detriment to edit down - though I always do. Also, texts in which I can just about understand what the author is getting at (due to either multiple rereads and some very hard thinking, or my technical background), but feel that the average reader will have trouble.
I will ask my client about these issues, then - as I say, it's good to know that the answer is not obvious.
I can, of course, relate a lot to what many of you say - Tom in London in particular. I have come to believe that academic (or any?) writers in Spanish can get away with considerably more sloppiness than we can in English while remaining almost comprehensible (and possibly without a native reader really realising). The situation is probably the same for Italian. I wonder whether it is the specific language (which would mean that the onus is on us to clean it up), or just cultural writing practices. Interesting question. I'm definitely not saying that everyone writes well in English, by any stretch of the imagination. But extreme wordiness and florid expressions are not particularly valued in English, I feel. Maybe they are not in Spanish either - my former employers were always ecstatic at having someone on the staff who could actually write a clear and concise report - but they certainly seem to be accepted. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:18
Member (2008)
Italian to English
adrienneiii wrote:
..... I have come to believe that academic (or any?) writers in Spanish can get away with considerably more sloppiness than we can in English while remaining almost comprehensible (and possibly without a native reader really realising). The situation is probably the same for Italian. I wonder whether it is the specific language (which would mean that the onus is on us to clean it up), or just cultural writing practices. Interesting question....
I think it's a cultural difference. Having lived in Italy for very many years and taken a university degree there, I know that university researchers and professors are approached with a sense of reverence and awe.
To reinforce their supposedly exalted position, these academics are expected to express themselves in language that is *deliberately* incomprehensible but that as often as not is simply a means for obfuscating very thin ideas, which are not often original or world-shattering.
As a translator I often find that my task is to try to make these thoughts comprehensible whilst still keeping them packaged in this "academic style", or something like what its equivalent would be in the English-speaking world.
That's the academics. The other category is technical-minded people who just can't write. This is more dangerous because no matter how sloppy the Italian text may be, if you get anything wrong in the translation somebody might be electrocuted or would be unable to escape from a burning building !
[Edited at 2014-07-26 16:59 GMT]
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adrienneiii wrote:
I am paid by target word, so it is to my detriment to edit down - though I always do.
This is a fairly uncommon way to be paid, for a couple reasons (one of which you stated).
In fact, I would hate to be paid this way, because it would probably inadvertently affect the way I translate. It can't be good for the quality of the translation to have this in the back of your mind. Also, you don't know exactly how much you will be paid before you start the translation, which must be annoying.
| | | | adrienneiii
United States
Local time: 11:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I am lucky.... | Jul 26, 2014 |
Orrin, it is a pretty well-paid gig, so the incentive to do a good job and keep the assignments coming in far outweighs any desire to boost word count.
It might be different if the pay were meagre, though...!
Tom, I wonder if you don't find the same issue in, say, newspapers? Blogs? Etc? I would venture to say that it goes beyond academia and technical experts in Spanish. That said, I deal in things Latin American, rather than (Iberian) Spanish. There is a general cultu... See more Orrin, it is a pretty well-paid gig, so the incentive to do a good job and keep the assignments coming in far outweighs any desire to boost word count.
It might be different if the pay were meagre, though...!
Tom, I wonder if you don't find the same issue in, say, newspapers? Blogs? Etc? I would venture to say that it goes beyond academia and technical experts in Spanish. That said, I deal in things Latin American, rather than (Iberian) Spanish. There is a general cultural issue in that continent of strong attachment to hierarchy, and wanting to distinguish oneself from the masses. I'm sure that drives written expression. I wonder how it is in Spain? All interesting stuff to think about. ▲ Collapse
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adrienneiii wrote:
Orrin, it is a pretty well-paid gig, so the incentive to do a good job and keep the assignments coming in far outweighs any desire to boost word count.
It might be different if the pay were meagre, though...!
Tom, I wonder if you don't find the same issue in, say, newspapers? Blogs? Etc? I would venture to say that it goes beyond academia and technical experts in Spanish. That said, I deal in things Latin American, rather than (Iberian) Spanish. There is a general cultural issue in that continent of strong attachment to hierarchy, and wanting to distinguish oneself from the masses. I'm sure that drives written expression. I wonder how it is in Spain? All interesting stuff to think about.
So you are just working with the one client, then?
All I can say is enjoy it while it lasts.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 02:18
Chinese to English
| The joys of culture | Jul 27, 2014 |
adrienneiii wrote:
I wonder whether it is the specific language (which would mean that the onus is on us to clean it up), or just cultural writing practices...But extreme wordiness and florid expressions are not particularly valued in English, I feel.
I don't think I suffer from this issue quite as much in my pair as Italian or Spanish translators do (from what I've read), but there's a bit of it in Chinese. I had a phone call from a client the other day, in which she said: "I've edited your text a bit, and I'd like you to check it. I've just made it more formal: replaced 'but' with 'however' and got rid of the verbs 'talk' and 'say,' you know what I mean."
I thought, I really don't know what you mean! Someone out there is implicitly or explicitly teaching these people that short, simple words are indicators of informality, lack of education; and the converse, that longer words by definition make a text more formal or more academic. And they've been taught so thoroughly that I've lost a number of jobs by daring to differ.
In your situation, where you have informative texts that just seem wordy, I sometimes go through a whole mental exercise. I rewrite the text in the source language in a more concise way. Then I sit and ponder the two versions: are they really the same? If I'm convinced that they are identical in meaning, I produce a concise English version. If I can't convince myself - if there does seem to be some message in the wordiness, even if I can't quite put my finger on what it is - then I try to reproduce the longer version, however terrible it sounds.
Edit:
A couple of links that this brought to mind
This is a UK secondary school teacher talking about how he teaches history students to write in longer sentences and to turn verbs into abstract nouns, because that's how historians write: http://whatslanguagedoinghere.wordpress.com/2013/03/27/blog-5-genre-pedagogy-in-action/
"I explained that this was written in very ‘everyday’ language and we needed to improve it by making it sound more like what a historian would write...The class are quite well versed in nominalisation (turning verbs or adjectives into nouns or ‘things’) as I bang on and on about it being a key feature of abstract historical writing."
And this is a French philosopher talking about the difference between continental and Anglophone philosophy: http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/truth-success-and-frank-ramsey/
"in France...Their work was very intelligent, often deep, but I had the impression that the argumentative work and formulation of theses was always kept at a distance...When I discovered the way philosophy was done in England and in the U.S, where people jumped onto what you say at once and express clearly their disagreements, I was struck by the contrast, and soon preferred the more naïve and open-minded Anglo-American style."
[Edited at 2014-07-27 05:39 GMT]
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Phil Hand wrote:
In your situation, where you have informative texts that just seem wordy, I sometimes go through a whole mental exercise. I rewrite the text in the source language in a more concise way. Then I sit and ponder the two versions: are they really the same? If I'm convinced that they are identical in meaning, I produce a concise English version. If I can't convince myself - if there does seem to be some message in the wordiness, even if I can't quite put my finger on what it is - then I try to reproduce the longer version, however terrible it sounds.
I do this all the time, and it's a great way to figure out whether there is some nuance that I need to try to preserve, or whether the author is just trying to sound "educated" by writing inanely long sentences that say simple things in unnecessarily complicated ways.
I think that it is a myth that there has been a movement in recent years toward emphasizing clear, concise prose in English. Good writers have always written this way. One of my favorite examples is Ernest Hemingway. And he wrote fiction, which is given even more leeway for verbosity (Faulkner, I'm looking at you...). There is absolutely no reason why an informative text like a typical report or article should use obfuscated prose.
I try to go by a general rule in my translation and all other writing that I do: if a reader has to read a sentence more than once to understand it completely, it is probably too long and/or written poorly, and needs revising.
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Orrin Cummins wrote:
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I try to go by a general rule in my translation and all other writing that I do: if a reader has to read a sentence more than once to understand it completely, it is probably too long and/or written poorly, and needs revising.
I am just coming to the end of a very long project where the opposite is the case - the source text is very well written and very carefully thought out. Definitely academic and philosophical, but most of the time readable nevertheless.
I have really been working hard, consulting my proofreader and revising to produce something that does justice to it in English. We think we are succeeding, academic style and all! After moving on, I can read the chapters completed a couple of months ago without cringing.
I learnt a bitter lesson a few years ago - I was asked to translate an academic essay in a very - let us say distinctive - style, and did not have enough time to revise it as I should have done. I did my best, but I still go back to it now and then as an awful warning to myself! Mercifully the important feature of the book was the illustrations, but my effort to reproduce the style of the original text was not a success - it is simply long-winded and difficult to read. OK, the Danish is not for beginners either, but it has a style that has not come over at all well in my version.
It is tri-lingual, so anyone who can read German or Danish can try those languages instead, but I am afraid many people will make do with the illustrations and skip the text!
Translation is not re-creation, but somewhere along the line you do in fact have to shift from the source way of thinking to the target way of thinking.
My source and target are close as languages go, but there is still plenty of scope for making a mess!
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 20:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Been there... | Jul 29, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
...
To reinforce their supposedly exalted position, these academics are expected to express themselves in language that is *deliberately* incomprehensible but that as often as not is simply a means for obfuscating very thin ideas, which are not often original or world-shattering.
As a translator I often find that my task is to try to make these thoughts comprehensible whilst still keeping them packaged in this "academic style", or something like what its equivalent would be in the English-speaking world.
That's the academics. The other category is technical-minded people who just can't write. ...!
[Edited at 2014-07-26 16:59 GMT]
Too true! I find the more technical/scientific authors aren't quite so bad, but when you get into fields like education, sociology or philosophy, then waffle, piffle and verbal diarhoea seem to be the order of the day.
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