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Is it time we agreed on a gender-neutral singular pronoun?

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Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 16:45
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
To return to the issue in hand Feb 4, 2015

Danish family law and its English translations are being re-worded in some areas to accommodate non-binary people, their registered partnerships and their children. (There have been changes in the actual legislation too.)

Neutral terms like the person, the party, the spouse, the child, the parent are carefully used wherever possible.

A child is grammatically an 'it' in Danish, which partially solves the problem with children. (Sort of - in normal speech the gender prono
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Danish family law and its English translations are being re-worded in some areas to accommodate non-binary people, their registered partnerships and their children. (There have been changes in the actual legislation too.)

Neutral terms like the person, the party, the spouse, the child, the parent are carefully used wherever possible.

A child is grammatically an 'it' in Danish, which partially solves the problem with children. (Sort of - in normal speech the gender pronouns or plural are used as in English).

However, use of expressions like Spouse 1 and Spouse 2, Parent 1 and Parent 2 and so on keep these texts as neutral as possible.

It sounds a bit heavy, but it does emphasise the legal position.

How far that sort of thing is possible with other languages will vary, but it is another way of raising awareness, and that is most important.
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Merab Dekano
Merab Dekano  Identity Verified
Spain
Member (2014)
English to Spanish
+ ...
In Spanish too Feb 4, 2015

Christine Andersen wrote:


How far that sort of thing is possible with other languages will vary, but it is another way of raising awareness, and that is most important.




This is the reason, I guess, Spanish stuck to "progenitores" as opposed to "padres" (parents). I too find it "heavy", purely from stylistical point of view, but it will "settle" overtime.

I am still tempted to write, say, "los padres de Guillermo". It would sound too odd if I wrote "los progenitores de Guillermo". The latter is, howefver, the "trend", and I kind of agree with it, but do not always "dare" to stick to it (depends on the text).


 
Collin237
Collin237
United States
I second the motion on "it" Feb 5, 2015

Remember that the job of translator is increasingly being taken up by machines. It's difficult enough to get machines to translate among widely different languages. We simply cannot afford to throw a wrench in the works by allowing "they" to be singular.

 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:45
Hebrew to English
Erm.... Mar 29, 2015

Collin237 wrote:
Remember that the job of translator is increasingly being taken up by machines. It's difficult enough to get machines to translate among widely different languages. We simply cannot afford to throw a wrench in the works by allowing "they" to be singular.


1. So you want to make it easier for machines to do our jobs for us by using language in a way which is convenient for technology and not humans?
2. It's not about "allowing" they to be singular, it simply is/can be singular.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:45
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Not yet Mar 29, 2015

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

Socialism, however, didn't triumph


....yet

La lutte continue.

[Edited at 2015-03-29 13:26 GMT]


 
Giles Watson
Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 16:45
Italian to English
In memoriam
A rusty wrench Mar 29, 2015

Collin237 wrote:

We simply cannot afford to throw a wrench in the works by allowing "they" to be singular.



That particular wrench must be a bit rusty by now.

The OED points out that "they" has been used as a singular pronoun since at least the 14th century (section two of the entry), albeit usually in conjunction with indefinite determiners such as "any" or "every" and the like.

The gender issue is an entirely different kettle of fish, though.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:45
Member (2008)
Italian to English
a (r?)usty w(r)ench Mar 29, 2015

Just to throw a Spaniard in the works (with apologies to John Lennon): without resorting to circumlocutions, how would you avoid confusing the singular with the plural if saying something like:

"I picked out one person from the row of people in the identification parade and said I'd seen them breaking windows" or

"If I heard a translator engaging in a discussion with other people, I'd be able to identify who they were".

?



[Edited at
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Just to throw a Spaniard in the works (with apologies to John Lennon): without resorting to circumlocutions, how would you avoid confusing the singular with the plural if saying something like:

"I picked out one person from the row of people in the identification parade and said I'd seen them breaking windows" or

"If I heard a translator engaging in a discussion with other people, I'd be able to identify who they were".

?



[Edited at 2015-03-29 14:35 GMT]
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Mario Marcolin
Mario Marcolin  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 16:45
Member (2003)
English to Swedish
+ ...
They Apr 3, 2015

I don't have a problem with extending the meaning of "they" to include 3 singular. in fact this is a striking parallel to the historical development of "you" which originally was 2nd plural only

 
Elizabeth Tamblin
Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:45
French to English
. Apr 3, 2015

I think s/he is a good option, until we have something better.

 
bonnac consult
bonnac consult
French to English
My take on this... Apr 3, 2015

I have lost count of the number of times I have replaced "he" in the source text by "they" in the EN version, simply because (Good Heavens!) the CEO or Chairman of the Board might actually be a woman....In my mind, "they" also covers the event that the individual in question might wish to be neither.
I spent a long time working in a "man's" world, where some of the behaviour that I witnessed would plainly send today's sensitive souls fleeing to HR, or wherever. My point is: get over it. If
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I have lost count of the number of times I have replaced "he" in the source text by "they" in the EN version, simply because (Good Heavens!) the CEO or Chairman of the Board might actually be a woman....In my mind, "they" also covers the event that the individual in question might wish to be neither.
I spent a long time working in a "man's" world, where some of the behaviour that I witnessed would plainly send today's sensitive souls fleeing to HR, or wherever. My point is: get over it. If you want to help women, help the women around you (if you work in an office, the cleaners would be a good starting point). If you want to support people of all sexual orientations or none, then just treat everyone with the courtesy that they deserve as a fellow human being. Whether you call them he, she, it or anything else is irrelevant. "They" is a reasonable catch-all in an imperfect world, much preferable to "it" for translation purposes, in my view. I cannot see how it could cause offence, and will continue to use it, while focusing what spare time I have on more important issues.
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:45
Member (2008)
Italian to English
These days.... Apr 3, 2015

bonnac consult wrote:

I have lost count of the number of times I have replaced "he" in the source text by "they" in the EN version, simply because (Good Heavens!) the CEO or Chairman of the Board might actually be a woman....In my mind, "they" also covers the event that the individual in question might wish to be neither.
I spent a long time working in a "man's" world, where some of the behaviour that I witnessed would plainly send today's sensitive souls fleeing to HR, or wherever. My point is: get over it. If you want to help women, help the women around you (if you work in an office, the cleaners would be a good starting point). If you want to support people of all sexual orientations or none, then just treat everyone with the courtesy that they deserve as a fellow human being. Whether you call them he, she, it or anything else is irrelevant. "They" is a reasonable catch-all in an imperfect world, much preferable to "it" for translation purposes, in my view. I cannot see how it could cause offence, and will continue to use it, while focusing what spare time I have on more important issues.



.. in certain quarters, such as the London Review of Books, it's very common, and by now unsurprising, to see "he" simply replaced by "she" with not so much as an explanation, and certainly not an apology. Kind of an historico/social come-uppance.

[Edited at 2015-04-03 21:39 GMT]


 
Georgie Scott
Georgie Scott  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 16:45
French to English
+ ...
If "he" doesn't make you double take, you're probably a man Apr 4, 2015

Someone (a man) said they didn't see the problem with "he" being all-encompassing. But I can tell you, as a woman, every time I read "he" referring to something I'm included in it sticks.

It's the same as when someone calls me English.

Simply because I'm not English and I'm not a man. I'm a female Scot. I've somewhat given up on the Scots thing and begun saying "yes, English, from a country very much in the north", but I don't see myself saying "yes, a man, with a uteru
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Someone (a man) said they didn't see the problem with "he" being all-encompassing. But I can tell you, as a woman, every time I read "he" referring to something I'm included in it sticks.

It's the same as when someone calls me English.

Simply because I'm not English and I'm not a man. I'm a female Scot. I've somewhat given up on the Scots thing and begun saying "yes, English, from a country very much in the north", but I don't see myself saying "yes, a man, with a uterus" any time soon.

S. Pinker alternated each chapter with "she" and "he" in his recent book "A Sense of Style", implying he finds the question quite pertinent.

It doesn't work, of course. "They" seems fine to me, and when it comes to the transgender issue, either the person in question has specified their gender or they're tolerant of the use of both.
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George Hopkins
George Hopkins
Local time: 16:45
Swedish to English
He Apr 5, 2015

The first contribution regarding this question is that we have one, namely 'it'.

We have another: "he", which refers to a person or animal of unknown or unspecified sex.
You will find this definition in any comprehensive dictionary of the English language, eg, Collins.

I find it useful, for example when translating from Swedish into English.

"She" on the other hand always refers to a female person or animal.

But perhaps someone has alread
... See more
The first contribution regarding this question is that we have one, namely 'it'.

We have another: "he", which refers to a person or animal of unknown or unspecified sex.
You will find this definition in any comprehensive dictionary of the English language, eg, Collins.

I find it useful, for example when translating from Swedish into English.

"She" on the other hand always refers to a female person or animal.

But perhaps someone has already mentioned it?

Why reinvent the English language?
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Neil Coffey
Neil Coffey  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:45
French to English
+ ...
"they" has been used as a singular ever since this pronoun existed as such Apr 6, 2015

Mario Marcolin wrote:
I don't have a problem with extending the meaning of "they" to include 3 singular. in fact this is a striking parallel to the historical development of "you" which originally was 2nd plural only


Using "they" to refer to a singular entity is also a striking parallel with the historical development of... "they", which has been used as a singular essentially ever since this pronoun was recognisable as such. This use isn't so much an extension... rather, the "extension" to the language has been the more recently invented objection to "they" being used in this way.


 
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Is it time we agreed on a gender-neutral singular pronoun?







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