| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14] > | Another unauthorised directory listing - lingvopoint.com Thread poster: Chosana Thanabhumi
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Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:14
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Scraping this information would not be difficult | Nov 16, 2014 |
Julian Holmes wrote:
I cannot really envisage a team of people accessing the profiles of all the members and copying and pasting this information. This had to be a systematic hack and data mining operation - smash and grab.
Our profiles are up there for all to see and if they can be viewed they can be scraped.
Give me a couple of hours and I could write a script that automatically iterated through the profiles of all ProZ members and extracted the information - and my skills in this area are pretty modest.
Parsing the extracted data correctly would difficult because, if my own profile is any guide, there is no explicit field in the profile for language pairs. That probably explains why some of the information on the offending site is incorrect.
So yes, it's a form of deliberate data mining, but as far as I can tell from the information that has been posted you wouldn't need to hack ProZ's security to do it.
As others have already noted, this is a consequence of allowing our profiles to be indexed by search engines. I think we should think carefully about the consequences of changing this. Do we really want our profiles to be invisible to internet searches?
Regards
Dan
| | | | Daria Bontch-Osmolovskaia (X)
Australia
Local time: 23:14
English
+ ...
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[Edited at 2014-11-17 20:45 GMT]
| | | | Daria Bontch-Osmolovskaia (X)
Australia
Local time: 23:14
English
+ ...
By the way, all of your responses to forum posts are also indexed by Google.
To test this, just Google site:proz.com . You will see them soon enough, maybe even on the 1st page. Or on page 3 or 4, if you just Google your name. It's all there.
Proz does NOT allow us to edit or delete old forum posts.
Which means that any silly thing you might say in a spat in one of these threads, or any information you might offer to a fellow translator in a forum, or an... See more By the way, all of your responses to forum posts are also indexed by Google.
To test this, just Google site:proz.com . You will see them soon enough, maybe even on the 1st page. Or on page 3 or 4, if you just Google your name. It's all there.
Proz does NOT allow us to edit or delete old forum posts.
Which means that any silly thing you might say in a spat in one of these threads, or any information you might offer to a fellow translator in a forum, or anything you say about any client in a moment of pique is hanging out there. Forever and ever, for everyone to see, including any tech-savvy new clients.
(unless you go through the long and painful process of getting Google to remove those links from their index)
Now, this I am REALLY not happy about.
We should be allowed at least this tiny amount of privacy! These forums ought to be closed and secured against indexing. After all, even Facebook allows closed and private groups, why not a professional resource like Proz?
P.S. I am not happy even writing this message in this thread. Because next week, it's going to be hanging out there, on Google, for my future clients to see. Hi guys! Don't be put off, we are just talking online privacy here!
P.P.S. I wonder - if I delete my account with Proz, will that also remove my old forum posts/replies? Probably not.
[Edited at 2014-11-16 23:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-11-16 23:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | If you do that ... | Nov 16, 2014 |
Daria Bontch-Osmolovskaia wrote:
There is a way that Proz can increase protection of our information, and that's by locking the site down completely. ...
... the entire site will die an unnatural death within minutes. Rats abandoning a sinking ship will have a hard time keeping up with the exodos of Proz users and (paying) members.
Daria Bontch-Osmolovskaia wrote:
After all, even Facebook allows closed and private groups, why not a professional resource like Proz?
Proz does have some 'restricted' and 'private' forums, but - fortunately - this ain't one of them. If you want 'absolute secrecy', post on FB (at your own risk and peril!).
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| Drifting OT (sorry!) Bin there, dun that! | Nov 16, 2014 |
Daria Bontch-Osmolovskaia wrote:
...
P.P.S. I wonder - if I delete my account with Proz, will that also remove my old forum posts/replies? Probably not.
[Edited at 2014-11-16 23:30 GMT]
Speaking from experience: no it won't remove your old forum posts. Which is logical enough: when you posted them you did so 'in good faith and with due regard to site rules', and they formed part of a discussion which would become incomprehensible if some posts were subsequently 'disappeared'.
[Edited at 2014-11-16 23:50 GMT]
| | | | Julian Holmes
Japan
Local time: 22:14
Member (2011)
Japanese to English
| Draw your own conclusions | Nov 17, 2014 |
Ward Whittaker wrote:
Is Proz actually going to weigh in on this and help us protect our livelihoods or are they going to do nothing as usual ?
@Ward
The Proz response is listed under "New at ProZ.com" on the Home page. To quote one line:
"To be clear, there is no indication that the information involved is private, but rather information available publicly in profiles. Most of the members who have reported this issue indicate that the republished material is a mixture of public profile information and fabricated details. It has also been reported that the publicly visible information on some job postings has been republished on the site mentioned. "
So, put differently, it's 'public' profile information that was lifted and none of our business?
Also, there is no issue at all that so much information could have been lifted so easily in front of your very noses?
I'm sure that you could have been alerted to suspicious data scavenging activity on such a large scale as this. I would welcome an IT person well-versed in website management metrics (Proz webmaster, maybe?) explaining how this is possible with such stealth (and impunity).
Moreover, I heard that it was the information of paying members' that was lifted. Shouldn't Proz be working the most to protect their interests? After all, it's us who pay our dues that keep this site up and running.
The fallout of this incident is that Proz will most likely see a rapid drop in those paying to use its services. I for one am thinking of canceling my membership if Proz does not come up with something more concrete than an insipid, pathetic announcement. 
| | | | Daria Bontch-Osmolovskaia (X)
Australia
Local time: 23:14
English
+ ...
Robin Levey wrote:
... the entire site will die an unnatural death within minutes. Rats abandoning a sinking ship will have a hard time keeping up with the exodos of Proz users and (paying) members.
Why on earth would it die? What's so terrible about creating an account and having to login BEFORE you search Proz directories, look at private information and job listings, mm?
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I agree with Daria concerning the forums. I think they should be private. For the directory no. Any scammer who wants to can log in and get the information he wants to anyway.
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Maija Cirule
Latvia
Local time: 16:14
German to English
+ ...
Julian Holmes wrote: Moreover, I heard that it was the information of paying members' that was lifted. Shouldn't Proz be working the most to protect their interests? After all, it's us who pay our dues that keep this site up and running. The fallout of this incident is that Proz will most likely see a rapid drop in those paying to use its services. I for one am thinking of canceling my membership if Proz does not come up with something more concrete than an insipid, pathetic announcement.
DearJulian,
if you want to cancel your membership, go ahead. I can't see any need to speak on behalf of others, moreover, I don't see any constructive proposals for dealing with the situation.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:14
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Closed = no search engine visibility, fewer new users | Nov 17, 2014 |
Daria Bontch-Osmolovskaia wrote:
Why on earth would it die? What's so terrible about creating an account and having to login BEFORE you search Proz directories, look at private information and job listings, mm?
Daria, I think there are two issues.
One is internet search. I certainly would not pay ProZ for a membership that blocked my profile from search engines.
The second problem is new users. If ProZ adopted a closed approach then people after the data would simply create fake accounts, as you yourself acknowledged.
In response to this ProZ would no doubt make the account creation requirements more stringent.
In response to that, the fake users would then find workarounds, leading to ever more demanding conditions on account creation. An arms race, in other words, between ProZ and those trying to get the data.
What this means for genuine users is that creating an account would become a nightmare.
Under such a scenario, I can easily imagine a situation in which just to create an account on ProZ you need to supply documentary proof that you are a genuine translator, such as proof of least five previous jobs.
How could you provide that evidence if you have, as is usually the case, signed NDAs? Or if you have no job experience and are just starting out? Same for an agency - newcomers would probably find it very hard to use ProZ to get established.
There would come a point when people would start to migrate to other, more open sites. I agree with Robin: ProZ would wither and eventually die.
Scammers are an unfortunate fact of life in this industry, enemies in a war without end. I don't see that closing forums will help us fight the war more effectively. You yourself have already made the most sensible recommendation in this thread: "If you don't want people to read it, don't put it online".
Regards
Dan
| | | | | True, but... | Nov 17, 2014 |
Andrea Halbritter wrote:
I agree with Daria concerning the forums. I think they should be private. For the directory no. Any scammer who wants to can log in and get the information he wants to anyway.
After a decade spent here as either a user or a paying member, I do not remember the procedure of setting up a Proz account too clearly, but it seems to me that the procedure creates the sort of relationship with the site that would allow chasing an account owner for breaking the site rules (e.g. through data mining) more easily than chasing a third party.
Consequently, the directory's going private (while tightening up the site's anti-scam rules at the same time) would create a sound basis for the site owner's private-law claims against the entities registered / logged-in for scamming / data-mining purposes, not only the public-law ones available now. Or am I missing something?
And what sort of customers would you lose in this way? The agencies are already in, and so are the end customers using translation services extensively. As far as the one-off end customers are concerned - do they really find you via Proz, or rather via Yellow Pages or the like?
BTW, and AFAIK, I was spared the scammer's attentions this time - perhaps just because I stopped being a paying member some time ago. A logical conclusion...?
| | | | Thayenga
Germany
Local time: 15:14
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| Protection for all | Nov 17, 2014 |
Daria Bontch-Osmolovskaia wrote:
By the way, all of your responses to forum posts are also indexed by Google.
...
We should be allowed at least this tiny amount of privacy! These forums ought to be closed and secured against indexing. After all, even Facebook allows closed and private groups, why not a professional resource like Proz?
P.S. I am not happy even writing this message in this thread. Because next week, it's going to be hanging out there, on Google, for my future clients to see. Hi guys! Don't be put off, we are just talking online privacy here!
Our profiles and all information, especially the forum posts, should be keep off of Google, made invisible for the public. Any legitimate client can contact us for more information via the link provided on the profile a visitor can see, e. g. excluding all information other than the service provided.
Daria Bontch-Osmolovskaia wrote:
P.P.S. I wonder - if I delete my account with Proz, will that also remove my old forum posts/replies? Probably not.
[Edited at 2014-11-16 23:45 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-11-16 23:45 GMT]
Unfortunately, everything you have ever posted will remain, even if you delete your profile. Or, as happened tro me years ago when someone stole my picture and created a dating site account in my name. I did complain to Google about it, but... when I checked yesterday (having remembered the case through this thread), I discovered that it's still out there. Yes, you Google people, read this thread and learn where you've failed by neglecting your responsibilities.
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| Admittance for agencies only then? | Nov 17, 2014 |
I agree with the benefits a protected admittance to proz profiles may have. But apart from the fact, that even the safest web sites can be hacked, even those from authorities, banking institutes and secret services, who will then remain trying to lookup proz for translators and interpreters? This will exclude not registered end clients and private persons, although their percentage is still quite low. For me this incident was a positive lesson showing that those scammers can be traced by whois a... See more I agree with the benefits a protected admittance to proz profiles may have. But apart from the fact, that even the safest web sites can be hacked, even those from authorities, banking institutes and secret services, who will then remain trying to lookup proz for translators and interpreters? This will exclude not registered end clients and private persons, although their percentage is still quite low. For me this incident was a positive lesson showing that those scammers can be traced by whois and that a combined force of a community forces at least the hosting service provider to take measures in no time. Try that as a single owner of a privately run homepage, it will take ages before the hosting service provider abroad will react, if at all. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The site cannot be accessed | Nov 17, 2014 |
I tried to figure out if I am listed, but cannot access lingvopoint.com.
I agree with Matthias that group pressure is effective, while individual complaints are not so easy to resolve satisfactorily. Thanks for everyone for your input, ideas and warnings.
And I also agree with Lisa: "It's certainly getting to the point where having a profile on this site is proving to be nothing but bad advertising if staff cannot control use of our data."
| | | | Daria Bontch-Osmolovskaia (X)
Australia
Local time: 23:14
English
+ ...
Dan Lucas wrote:
...
One is internet search. I certainly would not pay ProZ for a membership that blocked my profile from search engines.
The second problem is new users. If ProZ adopted a closed approach then people after the data would simply create fake accounts, as you yourself acknowledged.
In response to this ProZ would no doubt make the account creation requirements more stringent.
In response to that, the fake users would then find workarounds, leading to ever more demanding conditions on account creation. An arms race, in other words, between ProZ and those trying to get the data.
What this means for genuine users is that creating an account would become a nightmare.
Scammers are an unfortunate fact of life in this industry, enemies in a war without end. I don't see that closing forums will help us fight the war more effectively. You yourself have already made the most sensible recommendation in this thread: "If you don't want people to read it, don't put it online".
Regards
Dan
Hi Dan,
you do make some very valid points, and you are probably quite right about new people finding Proz less approachable if it was locked down. I haven't really thought about it from that angle.
I suspect there are already fake users on this site, at least going by some usernames! Empty profiles etc. Maybe I am wrong, maybe these people are just starting out and wanted to see what all the fuss is about.
Personally, I don't really care so much about my profile - it's a public page and its tweaked to be public, like my website.
But the forums... that's a different matter, and I do feel quite concerned about this information going out into the wide world without any security. It makes me feel like I'm constantly in a room with potential high-level clients, who are silently listening to my every word. It quite puts one off participating in Proz forums altogether, which is a real shame. It's a good place to get acquainted with other professionals in this industry.
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