| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Which "variant", if any, of your native language do you speak? Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
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Phil Hand 
China
Local time: 16:38
Chinese to English
| Can't worry about the ignorant | Jan 1, 2013 |
Ambrose - we can't spend our time worrying about what agencies might incorrectly think. If Proz can find a way to get it right, that would help, and agencies will gradually learn.
The combinations that exist in large numbers should be:
1) Mainland Mandarin speaker, simplified Mandarin writer (mainland Chinese/Singapore)
2) Taiwan Mandarin speaker, complex Mandarin writer (Taiwanese)
3) Cantonese + mainland Mandarin speaker, simplified Mandarin ... See more Ambrose - we can't spend our time worrying about what agencies might incorrectly think. If Proz can find a way to get it right, that would help, and agencies will gradually learn.
The combinations that exist in large numbers should be:
1) Mainland Mandarin speaker, simplified Mandarin writer (mainland Chinese/Singapore)
2) Taiwan Mandarin speaker, complex Mandarin writer (Taiwanese)
3) Cantonese + mainland Mandarin speaker, simplified Mandarin writer (assuming that everyone in Guangdong now speaks Mandarin as well) (mainland Guangdong)
4) Cantonese speaker, complex Cantonese and Mandarin writer (Hong Kong)
I think that covers the major groups, doesn't it? I've assumed that there's no need to divide Cantonese any further - what do you reckon? Also that overseas Chinese will fit into one category or another.
The question is how to represent these in categories. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:38
Hebrew to English
| A failed endeavour | Jan 1, 2013 |
I'm struggling to see what this brainwave has achieved. I do keep looking to try to see something positive that might have come out of it, but alas, everywhere I look I just see either confusion or people taking the p*ss (the Japanese variant of native English anyone?)
I have noticed the same people who (how do I be diplomatic here?) "stretch the truth" with their native language(s) are just doing the same with the variant option, some of them entering variants associated with count... See more I'm struggling to see what this brainwave has achieved. I do keep looking to try to see something positive that might have come out of it, but alas, everywhere I look I just see either confusion or people taking the p*ss (the Japanese variant of native English anyone?)
I have noticed the same people who (how do I be diplomatic here?) "stretch the truth" with their native language(s) are just doing the same with the variant option, some of them entering variants associated with countries they have never set foot in [by their own admission].
Caveat emptor has merely been extended. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Countries people have never set foot in | Jan 2, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
I have noticed the same people who (how do I be diplomatic here?) "stretch the truth" with their native language(s) are just doing the same with the variant option, some of them entering variants associated with countries they have never set foot in [by their own admission].
Caveat emptor has merely been extended.
I don’t know about the specific circumstances (maybe they are indeed egregious), but wouldn’t children of immigrants fit exactly this description too? They would be native speakers of variants associated with countries they have never set foot in.
(Which is not to say it is easy or common for second-generation Chinese, for example, to attain a native level proficiency that would be useful for translation. But it is possible.)
[Edited at 2013-01-02 06:58 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:38
Hebrew to English
| Yes, but I'm not talking about immigrants or their descendants.... | Jan 2, 2013 |
Ambrose Li wrote:
I don’t know about the specific circumstances (maybe they are indeed egregious), but wouldn’t children of immigrants fit exactly this description too? They would be native speakers of variants associated with countries they have never set foot in.
(Which is not to say it is easy or common for second-generation Chinese, for example, to attain a native level proficiency that would be useful for translation. But it is possible.)
[Edited at 2013-01-02 06:58 GMT]
...on the whole. Generally the children of immigrants do grow up to be "true" bilinguals (for a generation or two anyway) - but by no means not all of them, which is why I find your statement "they would be native speakers..." too generalizing. In addition, even if they do acquire their parents' language, they don't always attain the written competence to go with it (along the lines of what you were saying above). And this has been my experience with Indian immigrant children here - usually they can speak Hindi/Punjabi/Gujurati etc. but far less frequently can they write it anywhere near as well.
It's usually not challenging to spot the difference though between a profile which belongs to the child of immigrants and whose claim to "true" bilingual status is not belied by ridiculously poor output and the profile of....let's say....a wishful thinker with more fiction than a Dan Brown novel on their profile.
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I also speak Yorkshire, both South and North. Nathen, sithee, etc.. sadly, not much call for it in commerce!
Steve K.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 09:38
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Please, let's forget this! | Jan 2, 2013 |
It simply doesn't make sense! I can't speak for others, but Brits, Americans, Aussies, Kiwis etc. are all native English speakers.
I'm a native English speaker whose target language variant can be quintessentially British English, more international English (removing idioms and colloquial expressions so non-Brits can understand more easily) or simplified English for foreigners with a fairly basic level of English. Other nativ... See more It simply doesn't make sense! I can't speak for others, but Brits, Americans, Aussies, Kiwis etc. are all native English speakers.
I'm a native English speaker whose target language variant can be quintessentially British English, more international English (removing idioms and colloquial expressions so non-Brits can understand more easily) or simplified English for foreigners with a fairly basic level of English. Other native English speakers (from wherever) can produce output in different target variants, although we can all produce formal, internationally-suitable texts.
I really feel that recording variant as an optional field linked to target language would be much more useful. Then, if a client really wanted a text to appeal to (say) Glaswegian readers above all, s/he could select that as the target variant of English.
To be honest, some non-native English speakers might be better able to produce output geared to an exclusively American or Glaswegian readership than I am, if they've had many years of constant exposure to it. I certainly wouldn't presume to proofread their work. So it's a field some of them might be interested in using too, if they currently translate into English.
Wouldn't that be more logical with the Chinese variants (if it is indeed correct to call them that)? It seems to me to be logical to ask for a translation to be produced in simplified or traditional Chinese, Mandarin, Cantonese...
Should we perhaps adopt the -phone family of words for our native language? I'm just putting that out as an idea for discussion as I haven't got the expertise to decide, but I'm an Anglophone, my ex-neighbours in France, as well as my Swiss and Belgian friends, are Francophones, I live among Hispanophones... At least that would do away with the "French French" absurdity. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The Chinese variants | Jan 2, 2013 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
Wouldn't that be more logical with the Chinese variants (if it is indeed correct to call them that)? It seems to me to be logical to ask for a translation to be produced in simplified or traditional Chinese, Mandarin, Cantonese...
I can’t really oppose to that (since this is roughly just the status quo), though I have been trying to point out that this categorization doesn’t actually make sense without further context.
Going for these four would imply that, for example, generic “traditional Chinese” in fact exists, when often it doesn’t (due to sometimes major terminology differences, for example), or that there is one unified writing system for Mandarin (which is false).
From an informational content point of view, Phil’s suggestion makes much more sense, especially if the number of variants one can declare is limited to two.
I think I’m going to stop speaking now. Sorry for the intrusion.
[Edited at 2013-01-02 19:10 GMT]
| | | | OG Pete
United States
Russian to English
+ ...
| "Simplified English for foreigners" or not, it's still hard | Jan 2, 2013 |
I'm sure the argument that American English is "simplified English for foreigners" could be made and made well in an academic setting. However, it goes without saying that American English is just as difficult to learn to write in as UK English.
I think there is some misconception out there that American "is easy" and that anybody can learn to write perfectly in it after one or two years of study. Most Americans are too polite to draw attention to "foreign" mistakes, but this doesn'... See more I'm sure the argument that American English is "simplified English for foreigners" could be made and made well in an academic setting. However, it goes without saying that American English is just as difficult to learn to write in as UK English.
I think there is some misconception out there that American "is easy" and that anybody can learn to write perfectly in it after one or two years of study. Most Americans are too polite to draw attention to "foreign" mistakes, but this doesn't mean that they don't see them. Let us not confuse patience with ignorance.
[Edited at 2013-01-02 19:30 GMT]
EDIT:
Sorry I now see that I misunderstood what was meant by non-natives translating into US English. Still, I personally would rather see someone from the UK do a translation into US English than someone for whom English is not a first language.
[Edited at 2013-01-02 20:01 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| | OG Pete
United States
Russian to English
+ ...
| Thanks for the Reply. Let's Agree to Disagree :) | Jan 2, 2013 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
No, I don't think we want 'any old' non-native translating into English, but I think there are times when one with many years of residency might do better than a native speaker from another English-speaking country e.g. if there's dialogue.
Thanks and again I offer my apologies for the misunderstanding. I respectfully disagree, however and think that being from another English-speaking country offers better odds of success than many years of residency. All the best!
| | | | | The problem with “Mandarin” | Jan 3, 2013 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: @ Ambrose, if you're still reading  : I think that the major difference was that I don't want to see these (or any other) categories shown as native language variants; I was talking of the target language field, the type of language that we can produce and might be specified as a requirement by the client.
Yes, the temptation is too great. Anyway, for those who understands Chinese, here is a thread that demonstrates the folly of specifying “Mandarin” for the target language (unless we are talking about voiceovers or interpretation, for example).
For those who don’t understand Chinese, in short, one of our fellow translators responded to a job that asked for a translation into “Mandarin,” which was done, and then the translation was rejected by the client because it was not in “traditional Chinese.”
| | | | Rolf Kern
Switzerland
Local time: 10:38
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | spoken vs. written | Jan 3, 2013 |
"Written" seems to be the right expression for the variants of German. I am unable to write down any of the 26 different dialects of the spoken German in Switzerland, even the one of my home place Zurich.
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| Over 10,000 users have reported | Feb 19, 2013 |
Hi all,
A small update. Last week the threshold of 10,000 users reporting native language variants was reached. Some potentially useful data has been obtained. For example, we now know with reasonable confidence the three main variants of German reported by ProZ.com users (as well as the relative share of each of these variants of the ... See more Hi all,
A small update. Last week the threshold of 10,000 users reporting native language variants was reached. Some potentially useful data has been obtained. For example, we now know with reasonable confidence the three main variants of German reported by ProZ.com users (as well as the relative share of each of these variants of the overall pool.) See: http://www.proz.com/demographics/native-variants?use_lang=deu
Data such as this could potentially prove useful, if applied judiciously, in contests, KudoZ, the directory and so on.
Anyway, the project continues. If you have not entered your variant(s), please consider doing so. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:38
Hebrew to English
| Still have reservations | Feb 19, 2013 |
Henry Dotterer wrote: Hi all, A small update. Last week the threshold of 10,000 users reporting native language variants was reached. Some potentially useful data has been obtained. For example, we now know with reasonable confidence the three main variants of German reported by ProZ.com users (as well as the relative share of each of these variants of the overall pool.) See: http://www.proz.com/demographics/native-variants?use_lang=deu This data could potentially prove useful, if applied judiciously, in contests, KudoZ, the directory and so on. Anyway, the project continues. If you have not entered your variant(s), please consider doing so.
I swear I'm not trying to be overly or purposefully negative, so I'll start on a positive note:
The data does throw up some surprises. For example, I'd never have guessed that US and UK English variants would be roughly equal (although I'm not surprised these two variants dominate).
However....
I can't say I'm surprised by the German results though (German, Austrian, Swiss variants in that order). So whilst it's interesting to have it confirmed, it's not telling me anything I didn't already suspect.
Other languages.........
Hebrew poses a problem because it's hard to claim distinct and divergent variants of it. There's "Israeli Hebrew" and that's about it. There are probably a few ways you could delineate (Mizrahi, Ashkenazi, Yemenite, etc) but these are merely pronunciations, not really variants that constitute different Standards).
Greek: I hate to accuse anyone of stretching the truth but according to the Greek data there are ZERO Greek Cypriot speakers on here. They all claim "Modern Greek", which I'm presuming to mean "mainland Greece Greek". Could this perhaps be due to stigma? (Or just a fear of handcuffing yourself to a non-standard variant with concerns about how that will affect incoming work?).
In short, yes I think this endeavour could be useful for the purpose of data collection. In practice though, there's more than a few issues and problems with it and I tend to retain all my initial reservations from when it was first announced (when I said that any data would be skewed due to self-declaration, which undoubtedly has happened) and I've picked up a few new reservations now I've seen it materialized.
| | | | | New Zealand English | Feb 19, 2013 |
I surely don't intend to claim New Zealand English. Even though many suppliers on ProZ probably understand that for most intents and purposes it is sufficiently equivalent to British English, many more might find it confusing at best and possibly rule me out for jobs.
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. No, I don't think we want 'any old' non-native translating into English, but I think there are times when one with many years of residency might do better than a native speaker from another English-speaking country e.g. if there's dialogue.
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