| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Improvement of the translator directory search results Thread poster: Regi2006
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Regi2006 
Indonesia
Local time: 06:52
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Might be old topic, but new angle of looking at it | Aug 21, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
But your suggestion is not new, and it has been discussed, and there is a lot of resistance from old members who feel that their previous efforts should not be disregarded.
I don't understand, instead of thanking me for bringing it up (with a new angle and approach) so you can fight your old cause, you keep unnecessarily repeating and pointing it out to me that my suggestion is not new, from the moment you joined this thread. Like I need to be reminded again and again.
It seems like you are bored and tired with all of this. But on the other hand, still you are ... I don't know.
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-21 19:14 GMT]
| | | | texjax DDS PhD
Local time: 19:52
Member (2006)
English to Italian
+ ...
| In that case... | Aug 21, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Instead, I would suggest something like this:
Let more recent KudoZ points count for more than older KudoZ points. In other words, devalue the weight of KudoZ points in the directory ranking. For example, devalue them by 20% per year.
I that case I would expect to see the price of the ProZ.com membership discounted by 20% per year for "older" Kudoz contributors.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:52
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Regi2006 wrote:
I don't understand, instead of thanking me for bringing it up (with a new angle and approach) so you can fight your old cause, you keep unnecessarily repeating and pointing it out to me that my suggestion is not new, from the moment you joined this thread.
The fact that I was one of the people who have in the past submitted a suggestion for changing the system does not mean that this issue is "my cause".
The reason I say "this has been discussed/suggested before" is because none of what you suggested up to that point was new. I'm not criticising you for making the suggestions, however. I'm simply trying to help you get more feedback on your ideas by pointing out whether or not they have been discussed before.
If I understand correctly, you have suggested two alternatives: (a) let directory search positioning be based on only the KudoZ points earned in the past X period of time, or alternatively (b) do not show users' KudoZ totals in the directory search results. Am I correct? Only option B is a new idea.
==
Regi2006 wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
There is a lot of resistance from old members who feel that their previous efforts should not be disregarded. I've never used the word 'disregard'. So, no one disregards it.
You may not have used the word "disregard" yourself, but that is the word I chose to describe that which you were suggesting because I thought it was the most accurate and most neutral word. Your suggestion is that all KudoZ points collected before the current collection window should be disregarded for the purpose of directory positioning.
(1) users who know that they won't be able to gather a high number of points during that particular month will simply stop using KudoZ altogether for that month, and (2) users who find that they are unable to gather points at a more leisurely pace will stop using KudoZ as well. If they are not on the 1st spot, then they could be satisfied enough to be at the 2nd place, 3rd place, and so forth. If they don't answer at all, they would end up at the bottom of the list.
As you have hinted yourself, the first few positions are more likely to get most of the job offers. Therefore, if a translator can't be fairly certain that he has a good chance of reaching that position, he may decide that it's not worth trying at all, and rather use other methods of promoting his translation business.
I'll give you a practical example:
There are almost 100 paying Indonesian-English members. Let's assume that most paying members will want to actively try to promote themselves. In your system, each month they'll start with a positioning score of 0. In July this year, a grand total of 7 KudoZ points were awarded for Indonesian-English. In June it was 9. In May it was 15. Let's suppose that the total monthly supply of KudoZ points for Indonesian-English is 20 KudoZ points. This means that only 4-7 translators will get any points. The rest will all have zero points for that month. In other words, fewer than 10 translators' directory position would be affected by their KudoZ score. The rest will be positioned according to their BrowniZ points, and according to their join date. All this means that new translators (except for 5-10 lucky ones) will always be at the very bottom of the list.
If you have answered more questions, then more questions in which your name is mentioned will come up in search results for that particular term, but your profile's position in e.g. Google search results will not get any boost purely because of your high number of KudoZ points. OK, your profile is not, but your name is. Your name will be everywhere.
In contrast to what ProZ.com staff would like you to believe, I am confident that KudoZ participation has negligible effect on one's prominence in places where clients would encounter it.
What is your objection to the current system -- that new translators will struggle to reach the top of the list, or that new translators will look bad to clients due to their low points total? As I mentioned above, it's both. Why do I get the feeling that sometimes you are on my side, and sometimes you aren't?
I was simply trying to find out what problem it was that you were trying to solve. Your first post did not mention the second issue, so I was a little surprised when you mentioned it, but that's okay, because your answer helps us to understand what you were trying to say.
[Edited at 2016-08-21 22:39 GMT]
| | | | Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 06:52
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Spirit of this thread | Aug 22, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
The fact that I was one of the people who have in the past submitted a suggestion for changing the system does not mean that this issue is "my cause".
My cause, our cause, their cause, whatever ... the point is there's something wrong with the current mechanism. If we cannot solve it ourselves, then PROZ owner and support staff really need to come up with something new. This is the spirit of this whole thread. We don't really need a negative Nancy right now, especially among those who share the same opinion that there's something wrong with the current mechanism. The fact that this is being brought up again and again just indicates that this is one REAL issue that needs to be addressed.
The reason I say "this has been discussed/suggested before" is because none of what you suggested up to that point was new. I'm not criticising you for making the suggestions, however. I'm simply trying to help you get more feedback on your ideas by pointing out whether or not they have been discussed before.
Just because they have been suggested before, it doesn't mean they have been solved. I just searched the archives and found that there was only one member who disagreed here. One against three, in fact.
http://www.proz.com/post/2582120#2582120
If I understand correctly, you have suggested two alternatives: (a) let directory search positioning be based on only the KudoZ points earned in the past X period of time, or alternatively (b) do not show users' KudoZ totals in the directory search results. Am I correct? Only option B is a new idea.
Nope, I offered three alternatives. Check them again.
So, here it is.
If:
- many translatos are put at a disadvantage by the system, and
- many translators are cynical about the KudoZ, and
- there are many things beyond translators control to be KudoZ leaders
Then, then why use them at all against the translators?
I will mention them again: wrong timezone (late response), being new members, wrong answers get selected as the best answer. All those reasons. They do not make for a fair game at all because you got beaten not because you don't want to assist your fellow translators, but because of the many situations that are beyond your control.
As you have hinted yourself, the first few positions are more likely to get most of the job offers. Therefore, if a translator can't be fairly certain that he has a good chance of reaching that position, he may decide that it's not worth trying at all, and rather use other methods of promoting his translation business.
That would not be a problem. Why should it be a problem? There are users who participate in KudoZ specifically for the purpose of helping their fellow translators just like what is mentioned in the question mark icon: Translators earn "KudoZ points" at ProZ.com by assisting other translators with tough terms. I joined this site 2007, and I have been answering on and off on KudoZ, but it's only yesterday I learned that KudoZ scores really affected my ranking in the directory search. All those time, I answered them not knowing that they would be counted towards directory search, but still I answered them.
In fact, if I create a ProZ Poll today asking whether ProZ members realized that their participation or non-participation on KudoZ would affect their position in ProZ directory search? I believe most of them would say no.
And there might be many other reasons they will still help their fellow translators. Not everyone is driven by points. You see Yahoo Answer, people are answering, because they love answering. They love sharing. I really doubt it that if the old KudoZ points are not counted towards your search results, then this community of professionals would stop answering.
And based on this poll below, 52% out of 1744 votes indicates that the ProZ members would still answer KudoZ questions if there were no KudoZ points.
http://www.proz.com/forum/poll_discussion/150167-poll_would_you_still_answer_kudoz_questions_if_there_were_no_kudoz_points-page2.html
There are almost 100 paying Indonesian-English members. Let's assume that most paying members will want to actively try to promote themselves. In your system, each month they'll start with a positioning score of 0. In July this year, a grand total of 7 KudoZ points were awarded for Indonesian-English. In June it was 9. In May it was 15. Let's suppose that the total monthly supply of KudoZ points for Indonesian-English is 20 KudoZ points. This means that only 4-7 translators will get any points. The rest will all have zero points for that month. In other words, fewer than 10 translators' directory position would be affected by their KudoZ score. The rest will be positioned according to their BrowniZ points, and according to their join date. All this means that new translators (except for 5-10 lucky ones) will always be at the very bottom of the list.
That should not be a problem, there should only be 1-3 WINNERS in a game (Gold, Silver, Bronze, ... Olympic 2016 comes to mind). And here in this case, you even suggested 4-7 translators, which is more than enough. As for the rest being determined by their BrowniZ points and their join dates, isn't that great and what the old members are asking for too?
In contrast to what ProZ.com staff would like you to believe, I am confident that KudoZ participation has negligible effect on one's prominence in places where clients would encounter it.
Thanks for your confidence. Up to this point, your confidence does not mean anything. But, thank you for letting me know.
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-22 05:47 GMT]
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Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 06:52
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Another poll ... | Aug 22, 2016 |
Other Polls about KudoZ:
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-22 08:46 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 01:52
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Regi2006 wrote: If I understand correctly, you have suggested two alternatives... Nope, I offered three alternatives. Check them again.
With respect, Verdi, I have no intention of rereading this entire thread carefully to see if I can possibly extract a third suggestion that you had made. Why not simply correct me and what the third suggestion was? It would not take you more than a minute to do that.
If someone wants to discuss the issue you raise, and asks for clarification, it is not conducive to the dialogue if you reply "reread what I wrote".
I will mention them again: wrong timezone (late response), being new members, wrong answers get selected as the best answer. All those reasons.
I agree that all three those things are legitimate problems with the current system whereby KudoZ points are used for directory positioning. However, I do understand why KudoZ is used in directory positioning -- it's potentially a simple yet reasonably accurate reflection of a translator's knowledge in a particular field.
That should not be a problem, there should only be 1-3 WINNERS in a game (Gold, Silver, Bronze, ... Olympic 2016 comes to mind).
I'm afraid I can't agree with that. What you're suggesting is that only the translators listed in the top few positions should have any control over their positioning in the directory results. That would almost be like making it a lottery.
[PS. For some reason, when I do a directory search for ID-EN translators, ProZ.com now gives me different totals (it says there are only 3 paid members, not 97 as it said yesterday).]
| | | | Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 06:52
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Samuel Murray wrote:
With respect, Verdi, I have no intention of rereading this entire thread carefully to see if I can possibly extract a third suggestion that you had made. Why not simply correct me and what the third suggestion was? It would not take you more than a minute to do that.
WWA instead of KudoZ points? And for all those reasons I specified in my previous post.
I agree that all three those things are legitimate problems with the current system whereby KudoZ points are used for directory positioning. However, I do understand why KudoZ is used in directory positioning -- it's potentially a simple yet reasonably accurate reflection of a translator's knowledge in a particular field.
I welcome this very idea only when the client uses advanced search. The advanced search would allow them to look for translators with knowledge in a particular field.
But as long as the client uses simple search, there should be another system which provides the same opportunity for all tanslators, old or new, to appear at the top. What do you think?
I'm afraid I can't agree with that. What you're suggesting is that only the translators listed in the top few positions should have any control over their positioning in the directory results. That would almost be like making it a lottery.
With all due respect, Samuel, I created this thread with a hope that the ProZ would address this issue of unfairness. As for the minute techical detail, I'd leave it to them. I can only offer solution. If you keep shooting down my ideas, then we might both lost focus. Instead of thinking about more valid arguments why they should reconsider the system, you make me spend more time to think about all this minute technical details.
[PS. For some reason, when I do a directory search for ID-EN translators, ProZ.com now gives me different totals (it says there are only 3 paid members, not 97 as it said yesterday).]
Maybe yesterday you selected ENG - ID.
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-22 10:13 GMT]
| | | | Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 06:52
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Another argument against those supporting KudoZ points for ranking | Aug 22, 2016 |
Dear Colleagues,
I want to provide another counter-argument for the reason usually put forth by those supporting ranking based on KudoZ points.
The same goes for ProZ ranking by KudoZ- if somebody has earned hard to gain an insurpassable position, you just have to live with it and do what you can to become second or third best, not to advocate nullifying the efforts of the member, who has earned many KudoZ over the years the hard way- helping others and spending for that his most precious treasure- the time.
-- The quote above is taken from the post in this thread: http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/95960-order_of_search_results_in_prozcom_directory_more_opinions.html#777455
First, Help is help. When you call it help, you should not feel that you are forced to help others at the expense of your most precious treasure - time. And insisting to be rewarded for something you call help makes the word help lose its meaning.
Second, OK, you have worked hard in the past collecting points. But as you go along, you should have also benefited from it. I mean, if you've been at the top 5 since January 2002, it means you have profited from your positions for 14 years from 2002 until 2016 by being at the first top in the directory search. Isn't that enough? Endless profits? That's in a perfect world.
Third, ProZ should anticipate this. If this site is still around in the next 10 or 15 years, then the gap would be even greater with current "leaders" if new members join this site in 2031. Why are you willing to create a situation where new members, BY DEFAULT, cannot reach the top even if they compete with all blood, sweat and tears?
I know it is good to see some dedicated members continue to give back to the community for whatever reasons, it makes you feel good, and you decide to give them points and put them at the top list of the directory searches, but this would backfire if you don't anticipate it earlier.
So, I think the longer you allow this, the more difficult it would be to sort it out.
Thank you.
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-22 10:11 GMT]
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Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 17:52
Dutch to English
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| Kudoz points overrated? | Aug 22, 2016 |
[quote]Regi2006 wrote:
Tina Vonhof wrote:Fortunately clients seem to find me anyway.
I don't doubt it, but I think the ratio of the clients finding you would increase should you are at the top of the list, I mean you would be in the position where you can choose which offers you are going to accept.
If you are at the top of the list maybe you could get more offers from clients, or direct clients, than what you're getting right now. I don't mean any offense, but it could be just that those client contacted you because they had contacted those at the top of the list already, but they were not available, or they just didn't reach an agreement regarding the rates. So, it's only then they looked to those who were at the middle or bottom of the list.
It's just natural people look from the top of the list instead of from the middle or bottom part, especially, when they found to the left of the names, there are this KudoZ ProZ points 4,000, and down to the bottom of the list these points are getting smaller, says, 109 points. Who would they trust or choose?
Smaller KudoZ points next to your names would just discourage "direct clients" who knows nothing about ProZ or KudoZ to choose you over those in the higher parts, especially when there are many translators with the same specializations as yours.
[quote]
People contact me because of my specializations, my experience, and because I'm certified. I get as many inquiries from direct clients as from agencies and I don't think it has anything to do with my Kudoz points. As I explained before, I can never get to the top of the list because of the time zone I'm in.
You have a good profile, high-demand specializations, plenty of experience, lots of WWA entries, and you have been active on Kudoz. Altogether I think that is more important than whether you are at the top of the search list. Do I think the system could be improved, probably yes but each system has its drawbacks and there will always be some people who are at a disadvantage for various reasons.
| | | | | Thanks for the suggestions / discussion | Aug 22, 2016 |
Hi folks,
Thanks for the ideas expressed in this thread. We want ProZ.com to be fair to long-standing members and also open to new ones. We'll do something in the area of improving directory search. We'll ask for feedback before doing it.
Regards,
Henry
| | | | Mohd Hamzah
Malaysia
Local time: 07:52
Member
English to Malay
+ ...
| 110% agree with Regi | Aug 22, 2016 |
Hi. After having long read of these thread, I strongly support what Regi has suggested. The analytical reasons are also make sense. I look forward to seeing improvement in Search Directory.
| | | | | Sorting by "last 12 months" already exists | Aug 22, 2016 |
Regi2006 wrote:
Recently, I have been thinking about how the translator directory search results are sorted by the number of "Pro" KudoZ points on an all-time basis. For example, if someone tries to find English - Indonesian translators using the search feature on ProZ, then the translators who are shown at the top of the list are those with the most KudoZ points.
I think that is unfair to those new members of ProZ who purchased a ProZ membership only recently. The reason is that they would never be able to compete with those who have joined this site much earlier than them (for example, by more than 10 or 15 years apart). Therefore, they will never be able to reach the top of the search results.
Dear Regi,
Please note that the current directory will let sort translators by their "all time" KudoZ, or by the points they got in the "last 12 month":
Regards,
Enrique
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| don't devaluate our KudoZ capital | Aug 22, 2016 |
I have been answering KudoZ questions for the past couple of years in order to prepare for a future period in which I will work as a freelance translator. I am busy with another job now. But I have invested quite a bit of time to accumulate this capital, which I want to use in the future. It would be extremely unfair to change the rules with retroactive effect.
| | | | | I don't see that option... | Aug 22, 2016 |
Enrique Cavalitto wrote: Please note that the current directory will let sort translators by their "all time" KudoZ, or by the points they got in the "last 12 month":
As per subject, if we're talking about http://www.proz.com/translator-directory/ then I can't see that option, both when logged in or not.
| | | | Roman Karabaev
Russian Federation
Local time: 03:52
English to Russian
+ ...
Regi2006 wrote:
First, Help is help. When you call it help, you should not feel that you are forced to help others at the expense of your most precious treasure - time. And insisting to be rewarded for something you call help makes the word help lose its meaning.
Oh, please. This "meaning problem" would not bother you if you had a chance to get to the top in exchange for 1-3 months of active Kudoz posting.
All you want is getting top-ranked without investing your knowledge and using your search skills FOR YEARS like the leaders do.
We are not asking for any rewards FROM those we help, so I think we have the right to use the word "help".
Regi2006 wrote:
Second, OK, you have worked hard in the past collecting points. But as you go along, you should have also benefited from it. I mean, if you've been at the top 5 since January 2002, it means you have profited from your positions for 14 years from 2002 until 2016 by being at the first top in the directory search. Isn't that enough? Endless profits? That's in a perfect world.
No, that isn't enough. Go on, invest your time and knowledge for some years and enjoy your position since then.
Oh, you want it right now just because it takes too long to climb this ladder?
That's in a perfect world.
Regi2006 wrote:
Third, ProZ should anticipate this. If this site is still around in the next 10 or 15 years, then the gap would be even greater with current "leaders" if new members join this site in 2031. Why are you willing to create a situation where new members, BY DEFAULT, cannot reach the top even if they compete with all blood, sweat and tears?
By default? Nonsense! One guy in my language pair has earned 8,300+ Kudoz points in 4 years and is now ranked 4-th. I'm sure he's the first in some of the fields.
Why should his points be devaluated somehow just because someone wants to be on top right here right now?
Most of the leaders have 15-20+ years of experience at the moment (in my language pair the top 3 translators have 40, 31 and 28 years of experience correspondingly), so by 2031 most of them will retire and will stop paying (and will be out of the ratings automatically) or delete their accounts at all. So a newbie won't have to earn 100,000+ Kudoz points to be ranked among top 10. Although, of course, he will have to work hard to get there.
[Edited at 2016-08-22 18:50 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-08-22 18:50 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-08-22 18:54 GMT]
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