| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Improvement of the translator directory search results Thread poster: Regi2006
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Regi2006 
Indonesia
Local time: 18:46
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | If I am end-client | Aug 21, 2016 |
If I am an end-client/direct client looking for translators, and I am new to ProZ, all those advanced searches on the left side of the screen would, in fact, terrify me.
I would hardly try to tick some boxes at the left side of screen for fear that it would mess up the result searches. I would not be bothered to tick them (again, assuming I am end-client who are new to translation industry). Why would an engineer looking for a translator tick "CAT" on the left side of the screen if... See more If I am an end-client/direct client looking for translators, and I am new to ProZ, all those advanced searches on the left side of the screen would, in fact, terrify me.
I would hardly try to tick some boxes at the left side of screen for fear that it would mess up the result searches. I would not be bothered to tick them (again, assuming I am end-client who are new to translation industry). Why would an engineer looking for a translator tick "CAT" on the left side of the screen if he doesn't understand what that is?
I will be satisfied enough with the results of the simple searching just by clicking the language pairs, and click 'go', and then click the profiles of a few translators at the top of the list, and if they happen to be the ones that I am looking for, then I decide to contact them, and ignore the people down the list.
Thanks.
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-21 12:33 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Kudoz points are taken into account in advanced search but | Aug 21, 2016 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote: The point is that KudoZ ranking (plus paid membership) are seamlessly integrated into the directory search, therefore it's not a matter of clients using the KudoZ score as a parameter to choose someone over someone else, since every time they do a directory search (even an "advanced" one with specific options such as fields, CAT tools, credentials, etc.), the results they'll be getting will still be ordered based on KudoZ points (and paid membership)... Sometimes, there are also mistakes in the selected Kudoz answers... Indeed... 
Yes, that's right, advanced searches take into account the Kudoz score,
but it returns a very small number of potential translators compared to
global queries. So even if your kudoz score is much lower, you stand a chance.
One point is that clever outsourcers also assess the overall quality of your answers.
You can have a high kudoz score, but have a low kudoz score/questions answered
ratio and give a couple stupid answers... In this case, I don't think a good outsourcer
is going to select you.
And as I said, successful and clever translators don't need
to answer Kudoz questions and their rates are usually much higher. Kudoz
points also measure the ability to browse the internet. Usually, whenever
ousourcers look for translators through the directory, they are looking for new
translators.
[Modifié le 2016-08-21 12:42 GMT]
[Modifié le 2016-08-21 12:43 GMT]
[Modifié le 2016-08-21 12:47 GMT]
[Modifié le 2016-08-21 12:50 GMT]
| | | | Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 18:46
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | If only they have all the time required to assess thousands of KudoZ questions | Aug 21, 2016 |
David GAY wrote:
Yes, that's right, advanced searches take into account the Kudoz score,
but it returns a very small number of potential translators compared to
global queries. So even if your kudoz score is much lower, you stand a chance.
One point is that clever outsourcers also assess the overall quality of your answers.
You can have a high kudoz score, but have a low kudoz score/questions answered
ratio and give a couple stupid answers... In this case, I don't think a good outsourcer
is going to select you.
If only all outsourcers and end-clients have all the time in the world to asses the overall quality of thousands of KudoZ answers, that would be great. But it only exists in a perfect world.
Thanks.
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-21 13:02 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 13:46
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Not all KudoZ answers do it for the profile page ranking | Aug 21, 2016 |
Regi2006 wrote: Samuel Murray wrote:
This suggestion is unfair to old members who have worked hard to collect their KudoZ points. I don't think it's unfair to old members, because - Their rankings are still there, still on their profiles. - Their total KudoZ points are still the same.
For users who participate in KudoZ specifically for the purpose of increasing their position in the directory results, the fact that their ranking is "still there" on their profile or the fact that their total points are "still the same" will be utterly irrelevant.
In fact, I think that reducing the value of their old KudoZ points is unfair.
Well, what you're suggesting is exactly that, but more drastically: you're essentially devaluing all of a user's previous KudoZ points to 0% of its original value (for the purpose of directory results positioning).
Look, my devaluation suggestion applies only to the weight used in directory results positioning. It does not affect the rankings mentioned on users' profiles. In my suggestion, if a user collected 25 000 points over the past 10 years, then those 25 000 points remain 25 000 points on his profile and in his rankings, and are not reduced. But the 25 000 points don't count as a full 25 000 points when calculating the person's directory result position.
==
Since 2000, I have accumulated 330 KudoZ points, but in the past 3 years, I accumulated 0 points. In the current system, if a new competitor had wanted to beat my score over the past 3 years, he'd have had to earn 110 points per year. In the system I suggest, with a 20% devaluation per year, my weighted KudoZ score is not 330 but 57, so he'd have had to earn only 24 points per year.
If ProZ.com decides to use a 10% devaluation per year instead of 20%, then my 330 points would be worth 135 for the purpose of directory results positioning, and my new competitor would have had to earn only 50 points per year for the past 3 years to have beaten me, instead of 110 points per year.
[Edited at 2016-08-21 14:03 GMT]
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 13:46
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
David GAY wrote:
in every kind of field and offer low rates. Good outsourcers usually use advanced search to find specialized translators, and do not use the overall Kudoz score.
No-one here is saying that *clients* use users' KudoZ scores. It is the *directory results* that use users' KudoZ scores.
Clients are unable to remove the "KudoZ score" criterion from their searches, and KudoZ score is always, always taken into account. Even if the client specifies a very specific subject field, he will always see the results sorted by KudoZ score, and the score used in those results will be the total score for since those users started answer KudoZ questions, regardless of whether they have been answering anything recently.
| | | | Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 18:46
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I think I agree with you | Aug 21, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Look, my devaluation suggestion applies only to the weight used in directory results positioning. It does not affect the rankings mentioned on users' profiles. In my suggestion, if a user collected 25 000 points over the past 10 years, then those 25 000 points remain 25 000 points on his profile and in his rankings, and are not reduced. But the 25 000 points don't count as a full 25 000 points when calculating the person's directory result position.
Ok, thanks.
Even though I am still a fan of result searches based on monthly total of KudoZ points, I re-read your previous post, and I think your suggestion make sense.
Verdi
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Regi2006 wrote: David GAY wrote:
Yes, that's right, advanced searches take into account the Kudoz score,
but it returns a very small number of potential translators compared to
global queries. So even if your kudoz score is much lower, you stand a chance.
One point is that clever outsourcers also assess the overall quality of your answers.
You can have a high kudoz score, but have a low kudoz score/questions answered
ratio and give a couple stupid answers... In this case, I don't think a good outsourcer
is going to select you. If only all outsourcers and end-clients have all the time in the world to asses the overall quality of thousands of KudoZ answers, that would be great. But it only exists in a perfect world. Thanks. Verdi [Edited at 2016-08-21 13:02 GMT]
Some outsourcers do it.
Last year, a pm contacted me after checking all the
Kudoz answers I had given . I think it's the difference
between a clever and a bad outsourcer. A bad outsourcer only
relies on Kudoz points and the number of WWA (which can be deceptive)
and is of course very sensitive to the price per word .
He doesn't spend too much time selecting the translator and gives all the
jobs he has to the cheapest translator whatever the field. He hardly thinks
that a bad answer can ruin his reputation. If I were an outsourcer (and I think
it's the best role), I wouldn't give jobs to translators who give answers that could
be detrimental to my reputation. If you really want to attract lots of low cost agencies,
you just have to add a very low rate per word in your profile and key words such as cheap translator/ low cost translator/ all rounder and you're going to be the one who asks the Kudoz questions.
Isn't it marvellous?
[Modifié le 2016-08-21 14:41 GMT]
[Modifié le 2016-08-21 14:45 GMT]
[Modifié le 2016-08-21 14:48 GMT]
| | | | Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 18:46
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Thinking about it again ... | Aug 21, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Well, what you're suggesting is exactly that, but more drastically: you're essentially devaluing all of a user's previous KudoZ points to 0% of its original value (for the purpose of directory results positioning).
Sorry, I have replied to this above and I said I agreed with you. But I'm still curious why it is not OK? Here are my reasons:
1. No one has ever forced you to answer KudoZ questions.
Is there some kind of Terms and Conditions here that says that KudoZ points would be counted for translators directory search at the time you paid for your membership?
If it is just in Q&A, that particular details on the Q&A can be reconsidered as we have also to think about all new paid members. If in the next 20 years ProZ is still around, how the new paid members at that time would ever get to the top?
Even if your old KudoZ points are not counted in the directory search, you can stilll have its other benefits, which are:
a. Greater exposure/visibility all over the web. You have got 25,000 points for example, then it means your profile are all over the web already as the results of your hard works of many many years.
I quoted this from Q & A:
1.28 - Are KudoZ questions indexed by search engines?
http://www.proz.com/faq/5161#5161
Yes. As with the public forums, KudoZ questions are indexed by search engines.
Keep in mind that this can (and should) work in your favor. A series of excellent KudoZ answers, or of helpful, professional forum posts, boost your web visibility to potential clients, and may also give them a further means of evaluating you as a translator and as a professional.
So, you would still greatly benefit from it. But when it comes to ProZ search result, please, let us compete with the same weapon for we pay for the same amount.
b. A kind of credentials (when you bid for a project, you can still show your potential clients how many KudoZ points you have earned, you can still boast it, can't you? Of course, if you think that really matters).
c. Validity
d. ProZ could also think of many other ways how to make the old KudoZ point benefit the members, maybe by giving discounts when you renew your membership, or something like that.
e. Etc.
There are many other ways to reward the old KudoZ points, but specifically not to the disadvantage of the new paid members.
So, by introducing this, it doesn't mean that you would stop benefiting from your old KudoZ points altogether, if that's what you're afraid of.
2. You will always be able to participate in current KudoZ questions. No one prevents you from answering on KudoZ right now, but if you can't gain more points in the current months because new members are better than you, so that's it.
It just means there are better translators now, and it's no longer your golden era, or because you're too busy for ProZ KudoZ right now, and it is no longer your main focus.
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-21 16:10 GMT]
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Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 05:46
Dutch to English
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| And then there are the time zones... | Aug 21, 2016 |
I have long since stopped caring about my Kudoz points. Since the majority of members in my language pair are in Europe, and since on the American continent it is anywhere from 6-9 hours earlier (8 in my time zone), when I open up my computer in the morning all questions in my language pair have already been answered. The only thing left for me to do is agree or disagree or make a comment in the discussion section. Fortunately clients seem to find me anyway.
| | | | Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 18:46
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Ratio of clients finding you | Aug 21, 2016 |
Tina Vonhof wrote:Fortunately clients seem to find me anyway.
I don't doubt it, but I think the ratio of the clients finding you would increase should you are at the top of the list, I mean you would be in the position where you can choose which offers you are going to accept.
If you are at the top of the list maybe you could get more offers from clients, or direct clients, than what you're getting right now. I don't mean any offense, but it could be just that those client contacted you because they had contacted those at the top of the list already, but they were not available, or they just didn't reach an agreement regarding the rates. So, it's only then they looked to those who were at the middle or bottom of the list.
It's just natural people look from the top of the list instead of from the middle or bottom part, especially, when they found to the left of the names, there are this KudoZ ProZ points 4,000, and down to the bottom of the list these points are getting smaller, says, 109 points. Who would they trust or choose?
Smaller KudoZ points next to your names would just discourage "direct clients" who knows nothing about ProZ or KudoZ to choose you over those in the higher parts, especially when there are many translators with the same specializations as yours.
Thanks.
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-21 15:59 GMT]
| | | | Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 18:46
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I have another idea ... | Aug 21, 2016 |
Dear Colleagues,
I think I have another idea.
What if the total points that are placed next to our names are kept hidden? It wouldn't be fair to new members if any potential end clients see that the new members' total points are so low compared to those at the top of the list? And they don't know the reasons behind it.
I believe that having them next to your name would really affect the client's decision whether they would use your service or not. They wou... See more Dear Colleagues,
I think I have another idea.
What if the total points that are placed next to our names are kept hidden? It wouldn't be fair to new members if any potential end clients see that the new members' total points are so low compared to those at the top of the list? And they don't know the reasons behind it.
I believe that having them next to your name would really affect the client's decision whether they would use your service or not. They would most likely not know that some translators have answered questions since 14 years ago, hence their high points, while some others are just new members who start answering recently.
How would they know that it is exactly the reasons? They would think that you are just less competent compared to those above you with high total points. You're not PRO enough! And all those PRO points stated explicitly next to your name confirm it. That's the measurement being used by the ProZ. And it's only logical if that's how exactly they think about it. There's no any other way they would interpret it differently.
It seems that having KudoZ points next to your name really make you lose your credibility. It makes you feel not good enough. You got 100 points. The people above your got 3,000 points. And the END CLIENT would never know the reasons why your points are low, they would just easily assume you're just LESS competent compared to those above you, because you are at the middle or at the bottom, not at the top, and your low PRO points confirm it. How would they trust their project to someone who is LESS PRO?
It's amusing to see that some of the translators that commented on KudoZ are cynical about them (i.e., timezone issues, wrong answers get selected as the best answer, and etc.). If that is the case, then it is something to think about. The thing that they are cynical about is being used against them. (Sorry, off topic: there is one KudoZ question in my language pair got selected as the best answer. What should I do?)
Sorry, I don't mean to provoke, it's just a suggestion for the benefit of all of us.
Thank you!
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-21 17:27 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Innovation in PROZ | Aug 21, 2016 |
Hello
I think at this point, Proz needs an innovation, why, because the old system has shown his abilities in the best way and now has become too old and cannot continue under rule of old fahsion, I think so, that is unfair to those new members of ProZ who joined ProZ recently. And because of the old system the new members would never be able to compete with those who have joined ProZ much earlier than them like 10 or 15 years apart. Therefore, they will never be able to reach the top of t... See more Hello
I think at this point, Proz needs an innovation, why, because the old system has shown his abilities in the best way and now has become too old and cannot continue under rule of old fahsion, I think so, that is unfair to those new members of ProZ who joined ProZ recently. And because of the old system the new members would never be able to compete with those who have joined ProZ much earlier than them like 10 or 15 years apart. Therefore, they will never be able to reach the top of the search results. In the other hand at the time people who are looking for a translator, when they used the ProZ search feature, there wouldn't see many option, because they only have chosen to contact the first three at the top. That would be UNFAIR
[Edited at 2016-08-21 18:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 18:46
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Another thought ... | Aug 21, 2016 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
I see your point, but if new members would get sorted according to their recent Kudoz-points that would be unfair to those "old" members. Clients often require experienced translators.
Hello Heinrich,
I am sorry, I have answered your question previously, but now I want to answer it again from a different perspective.
You stated that clients often require experienced translators. But KudoZ is not an indication of anything. When you answer a KudoZ question, you just translated a term, not even a single sentence, not even a real project with all of its instructions and requirements.
I don't understand why it is Kudoz instead of WWA that is used to sort the ProZ search.
I'll give you some comparisons
KUDOZ - translating a term
WWA - translating a real project
KUDOZ - not all people are lucky enough to be on the correct time zone when questions are posted, or to be fortunate enough to be in front of their computers when questions are sent to their emails. And this is the main reason why KudoZ should not be used as a measurement of anything. All the translators in my language pairs usually ask questions during the day, then, how the Indonesian translators sleeping in Los Angeles get to answer the questions? There is a situation that is beyond his control. Does anyone ever think about it?
Furthermore, not all competent translators are interested in KudoZ because they are busy working. If you are concerned about client not getting experienced translators, then you should be worried about this.
WWA - timezone wouldn't be a big issue
KUDOZ - new members can hardly catch up with the old members who have been answering for 14 years even if they work really hard. Furthermore, how can you anticipate those who would join ProZ ten years from now? On the fifth page, eleventh page?
WWA - new members can easily catch up with the old members if they are good enough and work really hard.
KUDOZ - Wrong answer get selected as the best answer
WWA - If you failed in a real project, you simply don't get positive feedback
KUDOZ - You got some colleagues, and you can work together to boost each other's points. It's so easy to do it if you want. I cannot prove it, but that is possible. I can think of a scenario why it is so easy to do it, but only if you want to do it.
WWA - It's so hard to do this with agency or end client. You have to build your own agency first for you to do this. And it's such a hassle, and not worth it.
KUDOZ - There are many things that are beyond your control (wrong timezone, not in front of computer, wrong answers got selected as the best, being a new member).
WWA - Nothing beyond your control.
In many sites, rating is based on the reviews and feedback on REAL projects, not on something that is insignificant as a single term. Because when you manage to translate a term in KudoZ, then how would you use them in a sentence is another problem that you should solve. And you have no proof that you can solve it. Term is not real as far as our translation industry in concerned, project is. That's the whole package.
And now, I want to address some of the translators typical response if we use WWA as a benchmark: "I don't want to harass my clients into giving me a feedback".
My question, why? If you don't want to, it's your problem.
Nowadays, everyone uses testimonials to boost their profiles, from doctors, dentists, lawyers, debt agencies, schools, and any other professions. Or, should I mention them all here?
If you have enough time to quote for projects, to answer their queries, to explain why you are the best candidate for their projects, why don't you spare one or two minutes of your life to ask for their feedback? And if you've been nice to them just like as a human being is supposed to be, why should you be emberassed to do that? It's not like you are begging them for money. It's another way of asking them if they are happy with your work, in indirect way.
Thank you!
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-22 02:12 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 13:46
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Regi2006 wrote:
Is there some kind of Terms and Conditions here that says that KudoZ points would be counted for translators directory search at the time you paid for your membership?
KudoZ has been crucial for directory search positioning since at least 2003. It's not in the T&C but in the FAQ.
Samuel Murray wrote:
You're essentially devaluing all of a user's previous KudoZ points to 0% of its original value (for the purpose of directory results positioning).
I'm ... curious why it is not OK? [/quote]
I don't really have an opinion about whether or not it would be okay to just dump all users' old points and introduce the system that you suggest. But your suggestion is not new, and it has been discussed, and there is a lot of resistance from old members who feel that their previous efforts should not be disregarded.
From a practical point of view, if the window in which to gather KudoZ points is too small (e.g. a month), it would lead to two things at least: (1) users who know that they won't be able to gather a high number of points during that particular month will simply stop using KudoZ altogether for that month, and (2) users who find that they are unable to gather points at a more leisurely pace will stop using KudoZ as well.
If your old KudoZ points are not counted in the directory search, you can stilll have its other benefits, which [include] a. Greater exposure/visibility all over the web. You have got 25,000 points for example, then it means your profile is all over the web already as the results of your hard works of many many years.
Not really. If you have answered more questions, then more questions in which your name is mentioned will come up in search results for that particular term, but your profile's position in e.g. Google search results will not get any boost purely because of your high number of KudoZ points.
==
Regi2006 wrote:
I think I have another idea.
What if the total points that are placed next to our names are kept hidden?
Erm... what is your objection to the current system -- that new translators will struggle to reach the top of the list, or that new translators will look bad to clients due to their low points total?
Unfortunately we can only speculate about what clients look at when deciding which translators to contact from a directory search. If ProZ.com had every made a study of it, those results are not public knowledge. You and I can only guess whether or not this or that affects clients' decisions. Some clients know what KudoZ points are, and some don't.
Personally I think clients who don't know what KudoZ points are would simply ignore that column, due to the silliness of the name "KudoZ". Such clients would probably think it's some kind of game or the number of "likes" that the user gave to something.
| | | | Regi2006
Indonesia
Local time: 18:46
Member (2007)
English to Indonesian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Sometime you're with me, sometime you aren't | Aug 21, 2016 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
I don't really have an opinion about whether or not it would be okay to just dump all users' old points and introduce the system that you suggest. But your suggestion is not new, and it has been discussed, and there is a lot of resistance from old members who feel that their previous efforts should not be disregarded.
I've never used the word 'disregard'. So, no one disregards it. And it's not to be disregarded. There are many ways to reward their previous efforts as I said in my previous posts.
From a practical point of view, if the window in which to gather KudoZ points is too small (e.g. a month), it would lead to two things at least: (1) users who know that they won't be able to gather a high number of points during that particular month will simply stop using KudoZ altogether for that month, and (2) users who find that they are unable to gather points at a more leisurely pace will stop using KudoZ as well.
But why? If they are not on the 1st spot, then they could be satisfied enough to be at the 2nd place, 3rd place, and so forth. If they don't answer at all, they would end up at the bottom of the list. If they don't participate at all, it would affect their whole ranking, and they would miss the grand prize.
Not really. If you have answered more questions, then more questions in which your name is mentioned will come up in search results for that particular term, but your profile's position in e.g. Google search results will not get any boost purely because of your high number of KudoZ points.
OK, your profile is not, but your name is. Your name will be everywhere. So, if the clients wants to check your name on the Internet, they'll find that you are indeed an active translator in this industry just like what the Q&A said. Regardless of what it entails.
Erm... what is your objection to the current system -- that new translators will struggle to reach the top of the list, or that new translators will look bad to clients due to their low points total?
As I mentioned above, it's both. Why do I get the feeling that sometimes you are on my side, and sometimes you aren't? Can't we just agree that there is something wrong with the current system without you questioning my motive for no obvious reasons? It's not like I'm hiding my motives at all.
Personally I think clients who don't know what KudoZ points are would simply ignore that column, due to the silliness of the name "KudoZ". Such clients would probably think it's some kind of game or the number of "likes" that the user gave to something.
People see the list from the top down to the bottom. Putting your KudoZ points there with the heading "PRO" and all those varied points among members, is like influencing potential clients' decision to choose one translator over the others. It's better if they are not put there. It's like a 'bait' to choose one over the other.
Verdi
[Edited at 2016-08-21 19:17 GMT]
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