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Translating a book already translated
Thread poster: mekman99
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:51
Member (2008)
Italian to English
No problem Nov 19, 2016

mekman99 wrote:

My question is:

An editor asked me to translate a book into French. He gave me three different translations of the same book and asked me to translate the book with the help of these translations. He told me that the aim is to improve these translations. So to what extent can I use these translations?


As I understand it the book was written 300 years ago, and the translations were done at various times in the past.

Translations, as we know, reflect the target language as it was at the time of doing the translation. That's why books are regularly translated ex-novo, to reflect the target language as it is today.

As others have advised: IMO you should first of all do your own translation completely, and then compare it with the previous translations (assuming you have all of them in published form). There is no law that says you cannot read an earlier translation of the book.

I don't see any problem here. In fact I would assume that all translators do this as a matter of course.

[Edited at 2016-11-19 13:19 GMT]


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Actually Nov 19, 2016

It may rise another question regarding possible copyright issues, because every translation of the same source is initially doomed to be VERY SIMILAR, merely paraphrasing, rewording, or even plagiarism (to some degree).

Meanwhile, ain't rewording from many sources is multi-plagiarism, I wonder?
Unless they mention those sources, perhaps.

Not long ago I could compare three different Russian translations of passages by Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (Lewis C
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It may rise another question regarding possible copyright issues, because every translation of the same source is initially doomed to be VERY SIMILAR, merely paraphrasing, rewording, or even plagiarism (to some degree).

Meanwhile, ain't rewording from many sources is multi-plagiarism, I wonder?
Unless they mention those sources, perhaps.

Not long ago I could compare three different Russian translations of passages by Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), which are really different and styled--for the same reason to differ?

IMO it implies, assumes, and requires too much, more than just a literature translation.
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mekman99
mekman99
Algeria
TOPIC STARTER
original , layered copyright Nov 19, 2016

Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:

mekman99 wrote:

The book I was asked to translate belongs to an author of the 18th century. So as regards copyright there is no problem since it’s in the public domain. The problem is with the translations of this book which are all recent (no more than 15 years). These translations are all published. Moreover, the editor do not pay me in the same way when he gives me other translations as it is for him just a kind of reformulation. For instance if I translate a book from scratch, without the help of any translation, he gives me 0.10 $, a word and if he gives me other translations I’m paid 0.07 $ a word. What do you think?


You say copyright is not a problem, and yet as that article I mentioned above states:

"Subject to contract and regardless of contract, you will be the first owner of copyright. You may then give that copyright away, but you are still the owner of the copyright in the translation.

Consequently, there is a layering of copyright. There is the copyright in the original language and there is then a copyright in the translation. The latter is often called a dependent copyright because it is dependent on another copyright for its existence.

As an example, Proust who died in 1922 is out of copyright in the UK (he may still be in copyright in France due to different rules) but the Scott Moncrieff translations of the works of Proust and their adaptations by later translators remain in copyright.

So, in terms of layered rights, there is a first copyright with the original work. There is then a second copyright, which is dependent on the original work. And the person who makes the revision of the works will also have a copyright.

There is another curious issue. If you are translating from Norwegian into English and then someone uses your translation to translate from English into French, you as the translator into English are entitled to charge a fee for the translation of your English translation into French. This is because – as long as you have not given that right away – somebody is layering another copyright on your copyright."

Thank you Elizabeth ! I've read this article you provided in the link. In fact, what I meant by copyright is the original copyright. That's why I said...the problem is with the translations, I mean with their copyrights. That's also why I asked in the beginning the question: to what extent can I use these translations. Is copyright absolute, so that I'm not allowed even to use a word or a sentence, or it concerns only lengthy passages or the whole work?


 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:51
German to English
A very interesting question ... Nov 23, 2016

but unfortunately I couldn't find anything online about it either. Maybe someone else will find something, All I can give you is my opinion.

You would think that some publisher would have sued another publisher at some point for releasing a new translation too strongly based on an existing translation and thus violating copyright. I couldn't find anything like this or any directly relevant information while searching in English and German. The relevant legal concept in the US is "su
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but unfortunately I couldn't find anything online about it either. Maybe someone else will find something, All I can give you is my opinion.

You would think that some publisher would have sued another publisher at some point for releasing a new translation too strongly based on an existing translation and thus violating copyright. I couldn't find anything like this or any directly relevant information while searching in English and German. The relevant legal concept in the US is "substantial similarity," but it doesn't seem helpful at all for the case of multiple translations.

And this is a question of a detailed interpretation of copyright law, so the situation is likely to be different in different countries.

Copying the entire translation is an obvious violation of copyright law anywhere. Identical words and phrases (unless the translations are very non-intuitive and characteristic) are obviously not a problem. Copying an entire paragraph seems like a clear violation of copyright, because there is no question of "fair use" (or related principles) being in play here and it would be more or less impossible to argue that the similarity is coincidental or unavoidable. Some sentences would almost have to be identical (because there are only a handful of appropriate translations), but I would think that the vast majority of sentences would have to be different (because otherwise this would again involve your clearly using another translator's intellectual property without permission).

I think that if you jump back and forth among the translations, choosing the best alternative and consistently rephrasing it, there is probably not much likelihood that your new translation would be held to be a violation of copyright. It seems to be very difficult for copyright holders to win cases like that involving indirect violations of copyright (the recent US case regarding "Stairway to Heaven" comes to mind).

On the other hand, what your publisher is proposing seems clearly unethical (a legally permissible form of IP piracy) and damaging to the intellectual community (entirely pointless multiplication of translations), and I don't even think that it would make business sense in terms of saving something like 30% on the translation to create a substandard and pointless product.
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:51
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Absurd Nov 23, 2016

Michael Wetzel wrote:

....I think that if you jump back and forth among the translations, choosing the best alternative and consistently rephrasing it, there is probably not much likelihood that your new translation would be held to be a violation of copyright....


If there actually exists a lawyer who believes that a new translation of a book should be substantially different from other translations of the same book, for reasons of copyright, then that lawyer is illiterate, doesn't know her/his job, and would be well advised not to threaten people.

No serious translator would ever artificially change their translation for the simple reason of making it different from previous translations of the same book. That would be absurd, unethical, and unprofessional.

Morever it is entirely possible that the translation of a complete paragraph from a book, newly translated, might well end up exactly the same as an earlier translation - if the new translation is done well.

I can only reiterate what I said in my previous post.

Here's an interesting paper that compares two translations into Spanish of George Orwell's "Down and Out in Paris and London".

http://biblioteca.unirioja.es/tfe_e/TFE000346.pdf


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 12:51
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Mek Nov 23, 2016

mekman99 wrote:
An editor asked me to translate a book into French. He gave me three different translations of the same book and asked me (1)to translate the book with the help of these translations. He told me that (3) the aim is to improve these translations.


Did you/he mean "to improve these translations" or "to improve upon these translations"?

From what you wrote in this thread, I get the impression that he wants you to re-use the existing translations and simply edit them somewhat to make your translation seem "different". Is that right?

So to what extent can I use these translations?


You must try to avoid having sentences that are identical to any sentences in those translations, except for sentences where two authors already wrote very similar sentences or sentences that can't reasonably have any other translation or that would reasonably have been translated that way anyway.

As you say later on, these translations are all very recent, which means that they are copyrighted. I don't think you can easily get away with what I suspect the editor is asking you to try to get away with. For example, if you were to use one translation as the base, and make changes to every sentence, based on the other two translations, it would still be fairly easy for that translator to compare your version with their version and see quite clearly that it was based on their translation.

mekman99 wrote:
What if I make my proper translation of a passage for instance, then I see the other translations. If I consider that a translation is better than mine I choose it. I mean not the whole passage, just a word or a sentence.


Well, strictly speaking you can't simply replace the other translator's sentence with your own, but if you find that the other translator said something better than you did, then you can update your own translation with the wording that he used. In some/many cases, this would simply mean using his translation, though.

They important things are that (a) if someone were to examine the final product, it should not be apparent to them that you had simply copied whole sentences, and (b) if a computer program was to compare your translation with someone else's, it should not discover that your translation is merely an edited version of the other.

Another ethical question comes to my mind. How come that these translators endeavored to make such translations, then a translator comes and uses their translations, which is much easier than starting from scratch?


All aspiring authors mimic other authors. If translators do not want their efforts to be beneficial to subsequent translators, then they should not publish their translations. (-:

mekman99 wrote:
Moreover, the editor does not pay me in the same way when he gives me other translations as it is for him just a kind of reformulation.


I think the editor may have a misconception of how much effort goes into translation. Perhaps he thinks that if he provides you with three other translations, then you don't have to "think" when translating, and that that would save you a lot of time. In reality, merging three translations into one is often more work and will often take more time than simply translating the text from scratch.

In some of my business translation, I have the same thing: the agency asks two translators to translate the text, and then asks a third person (often me) to "merge" the two translations into one, thinking that the result will be better than either of the two original translations by themselves (it's not) and that doing this merging will take much less time than translating from scratch (it does not).

I think, based on what you're saying, the editor is asking you to do something illegal. You can't do a "reformulation" of a translation without permission from the translation's original translator. Even if you decide to do it (and turn a blind eye to ethics), you would have to make extensive changes to the translator to ensure that an observer or a computer can't tell that you've ripped off someone else's translation.

For instance if I translate a book from scratch, without the help of any translation, he gives me 0.10 $, a word and if he gives me other translations I’m paid 0.07 $ a word. What do you think?


Well, for a 30% discount off the normal rate, I'd say: translate from scratch, but keep the other three translations open to peek at while you do that.

mekman99 wrote:
That's also why I asked in the beginning the question: to what extent can I use these translations. Is copyright absolute, so that I'm not allowed even to use a word or a sentence, or it concerns only lengthy passages or the whole work?


Individual words or phrases used within sentencs are not copyrighted.


[Edited at 2016-11-23 10:16 GMT]


 
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