| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Discontinue the use of 'powwow'. Thread poster: scooke
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Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 07:30
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | On the contrary... | Dec 20, 2014 |
B D Finch wrote:
I have not quite understood this objection to the use of the word powwow in English. How is this more disrespectful to First Nations than is the use of the many English words deriving from Indian languages: verandah, shampoo, pyjamas etc. to Indians?
On the contrary, Indians feel mighty proud to see the long list of words they have contributed to the English language. It gives them a sense of ownership of the English language which in fact is very essential because there is ambivalence in our attitude towards the English language.
On the one hand, we hate it as a colonial vestige, and we are quite wistful and apologetic of our increasing command over this international language, and in fact regret that we have such a command, which often exceeds our command over our own languages. On the other, we also recognize the usefulness and possibilities of our expertise in an international language and appreciate our power to mould it and contribute to its development.
I suppose, it all depends on how confident we feel of our own languages and cultures and to the extent we can gain control over English. If you feel threatened by English, as the French feel, you will try to regulate the influence English has on your language; if you feel confident, you jump into the fray and help in shaping (or mangling) the English language.
I think the Indian approach, rather than the French or the OT's approach, is more viable, as there is little that individuals and even cultures can do to change the course of global trends, other than to jump on to the band wagon.
As the saying goes, if you can't beat them, join them!
[Edited at 2014-12-20 08:21 GMT]
| | | | | Another perspective | Dec 21, 2014 |
Here's an interesting article dealing with the term 'redskin', which most consider a far more controversial term : http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/10/08/how-many-native-americans-think-redskins-is-a-slur/
It is important to remember that there is very seldom anything that an entire ethnic group (never mind the many groups that ... See more Here's an interesting article dealing with the term 'redskin', which most consider a far more controversial term : http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/10/08/how-many-native-americans-think-redskins-is-a-slur/
It is important to remember that there is very seldom anything that an entire ethnic group (never mind the many groups that make up the Native American/First Nation population) has an entirely uniform opinion about, and I'm not sure that 'powow' is one of them. With that said, if the term makes someone feel uncomfortable, then I certainly think it's worth discussing changing it.
I'd personally say change it, but I can certainly understand the arguments of others to keep it, especially in the absence of more contributions from Native American/First Nation members.
[Edited at 2014-12-21 05:34 GMT]
[Edited at 2014-12-21 06:19 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I see what you're saying, but wondering... | Dec 21, 2014 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: B D Finch wrote:
I have not quite understood this objection to the use of the word powwow in English. How is this more disrespectful to First Nations than is the use of the many English words deriving from Indian languages: verandah, shampoo, pyjamas etc. to Indians? On the contrary, Indians feel mighty proud to see the long list of words they have contributed to the English language. It gives them a sense of ownership of the English language which in fact is very essential because there is ambivalence in our attitude towards the English language.[Edited at 2014-12-20 08:21 GMT]
How about when such things go toward things being held sacred by a culture? And this has probably held true for things that have been popularized and commercialized in the West. Thinking about it, I do think there are some differences between First Nations and Indians. Above all, India has shaken off colonialism and is a country of its own right. The First Nations people have been stripped of their land. They still live on the same continent, either assimilated into the mainstream, or in reservations which are a mockery of what they once had. They cannot preserve their heritage in the same way. In that case, I think a greater sensitivity is in order on our part. When you take a sacred ceremony which at one point was forbidden, and turn it into something commercial stripped of its meaning, it continues the same depersonalization of a people. You can't put "shampoo" and "powow" into the same category.
| | | | | I see what you're saying, but wondering... | Dec 21, 2014 |
deleted
mod - please remove instead of posting. thx.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 07:30
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Relying on others to be sensitive your culture is very bad policy | Dec 21, 2014 |
Maxi Schwarz wrote:
How about when such things go toward things being held sacred by a culture? And this has probably held true for things that have been popularized and commercialized in the West. Thinking about it, I do think there are some differences between First Nations and Indians. Above all, India has shaken off colonialism and is a country of its own right. The First Nations people have been stripped of their land. They still live on the same continent, either assimilated into the mainstream, or in reservations which are a mockery of what they once had. They cannot preserve their heritage in the same way. In that case, I think a greater sensitivity is in order on our part. When you take a sacred ceremony which at one point was forbidden, and turn it into something commercial stripped of its meaning, it continues the same depersonalization of a people. You can't put "shampoo" and "powow" into the same category.
Depending on others to respect your sensibility is not such a wise or even a practical approach. What if they don't respect it? You are actually placing yourself at their mercy, and admitting that you are the weaker party. The world never respects the weaker party, though civilization (in the sense of etiquette) does preach that we should respect the weak. But do we really? It is something worth thinking about.
I am fully in sympathy with the OT, and also with Maxi's above analysis of how the American native cultures have been driven to the dust in the whole of North America, and also in Latin America, by the Europeans and how we should do everything in our power to be sensitive to their lot. But this will hardly help them; ultimately, they will have to pull themselves up by their boot-straps on their own. If others do it for them, then that would still leave them weak. To stand up before the world communities on equal terms, they will have to build their inner confidence and strength. And it seems to me, by showing touchiness about such little things as the use (or misuse) of words or terms from their cultures by others they are in fact conveying that they still need to do a lot internally, which only they can do.
That is one aspect. The other aspect is, I don't buy the argument that powwow is even a native American term. It is an English language term with a clearly defined meaning and it is used here in that sense, and I don't see any point in anyone objecting to its use.
You say that shampoo and powwow can't be equated. But surely mantra (the sacred verses of the holy books of Indians, the Vedas) is something more like powwow, yet no Indian objects to the use of mantra (and hundreds of similar terms in English - to cite another one - juggernaut (used in English to mean an unstoppable machine) which in Sanskrit and Hindi is Jagannath, which means the Lord of the Universe, and a very holy and religious term).
The only tenable argument that has come up in this thread against powwow is that of Tom who accepts powwow as an English word but objects to it on the grounds that it is 1. ugly sounding and 2. it does not quite mean what the things that happen under this term actually are.
This too can be easily countered. The first argument (ugliness) is very subjective, and the second can be disproved by referring to any English dictionary.
[Edited at 2014-12-21 16:16 GMT]
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Perhaps the word mantra should not be misused either. Say the word.  But we are also talking about a population that was almost decimated. It's hard for a group to find a voice when there are so few left. While people might be expected to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" I am not going to have a hand in participating in what might be an act of disrespect.
| | | | Paul Lambert
Sweden
Local time: 04:00
Member (2006)
Swedish to English
+ ...
| Throw down the gauntlet | Dec 23, 2014 |
Please understand that there is actually only one word that the politically correct don't understand: enough. It will never be enough. If we change powwows to meetings, for example, the word meeting will be offensive to shy people. Just stop the treadmill now. No matter how much of our time we waste changing terms that offend some person somewhere, there will always be more to do.
Besides, for adults to become so easily offended is a disgrace. It is not ... See more Please understand that there is actually only one word that the politically correct don't understand: enough. It will never be enough. If we change powwows to meetings, for example, the word meeting will be offensive to shy people. Just stop the treadmill now. No matter how much of our time we waste changing terms that offend some person somewhere, there will always be more to do.
Besides, for adults to become so easily offended is a disgrace. It is not enlightened or sensitive. It is emotional weakness.
Knock it off!
PS. I wonder what the Dorset culture would have thought of some of the later Eskimo and American Indian cultures referring to themselves as "First Nations". ▲ Collapse
| | | | | stop trying to censor your colleagues | Dec 23, 2014 |
Paul - You forget that language is part of history and that history changes. The meanings of words are always in flux. For thousands of years, people have debated social issues through the changing meanings of words: go back and read your Plato and Aristotle. Since translators specialize in the subtleties of language, it is entirely unsurprising that some of them enjoy discussing what certain words mean and how they change.
It is your hyper-sensitivity to others discussing an i... See more Paul - You forget that language is part of history and that history changes. The meanings of words are always in flux. For thousands of years, people have debated social issues through the changing meanings of words: go back and read your Plato and Aristotle. Since translators specialize in the subtleties of language, it is entirely unsurprising that some of them enjoy discussing what certain words mean and how they change.
It is your hyper-sensitivity to others discussing an issue of interest to them that is inappropriate. If you don't like the conversation, then don't take part, don't read it, don't get in such an emotional uproar. Above all, don't try to shut down a discussion by censoring the topic altogether or trashing anyone who cares about it.
Evidently there are many others who, unlike you, believe it is worth discussing -- in fact, enough people have found this topic interesting that there are now 7 pages of posts in the thread. You don't have to agree with them and they don't have to agree with you.
If the very topic gets you upset, there are plenty of other threads you can follow instead.
[Edited at 2014-12-23 15:26 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Paul Lambert
Sweden
Local time: 04:00
Member (2006)
Swedish to English
+ ...
| I am not censoring anything | Dec 23, 2014 |
On the contrary. Discuss it all you want. My 2 cents worth is that we should not change words because a few people are overly sensitive. That is what we need to knock off. Sure, language changes, but let such changes be natural and organic, not out of fear of offending some odd person who in the end decided not to join Proz after all.
[By the way, and with respect to Catherine (it is not at all personal), did anyone else understand my above post in the way she did, i.e., that I was ... See more On the contrary. Discuss it all you want. My 2 cents worth is that we should not change words because a few people are overly sensitive. That is what we need to knock off. Sure, language changes, but let such changes be natural and organic, not out of fear of offending some odd person who in the end decided not to join Proz after all.
[By the way, and with respect to Catherine (it is not at all personal), did anyone else understand my above post in the way she did, i.e., that I was discouraging this discussion?]
[Edited at 2014-12-23 15:52 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | finnword1
United States
Local time: 22:00
English to Finnish
+ ...
| I agree. It's borderline retarded. | Dec 23, 2014 |
Let's keep it in English.
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:00
Serbian to English
+ ...
"I was about to sign up for a Pro account and then saw this terminology. Disgusting. Based on ignorance.
Another term must be used. "
MUST?
Is your argument that the whole site should be adapted to you personal vision of what is "Disgusting. Based on ignorance" under the threat of withholding your subscription?
you self-appointed high moral ground reminds of a character whose closing line was "mes gages mes gages"
I'm sure you'll f... See more "I was about to sign up for a Pro account and then saw this terminology. Disgusting. Based on ignorance.
Another term must be used. "
MUST?
Is your argument that the whole site should be adapted to you personal vision of what is "Disgusting. Based on ignorance" under the threat of withholding your subscription?
you self-appointed high moral ground reminds of a character whose closing line was "mes gages mes gages"
I'm sure you'll find easily the relevant references.
otherwise, I would just add that I couldn't agree more with The Misha
EOT ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:00
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| What really annoys me about "pow-wow" | Dec 25, 2014 |
...is that it's disrespectful to the real Native American pow-wows that take place in California, Montana, and numerous other places. A few Proz members getting together in a pub or café to talk about translation has nothing to do with what happens at a real pow-wow.
[Edited at 2014-12-25 12:07 GMT]
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Oliver Walter
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:00
German to English
+ ...
| Something in common | Dec 27, 2014 |
Tom in London wrote:
[What really annoys me about "pow-wow"...] ...is that it's disrespectful to the real Native American pow-wows that take place in California, Montana, and numerous other places. A few Proz members getting together in a pub or café to talk about translation has nothing to do with what happens at a real pow-wow.
Yes, it does have something to do with a "real" one: They are both meetings between people with something in common.
I would guess that the test for whether using "powwow" for informal Proz meetings is disrespectful is to find out who, among the "authentic" powwow-holding people, is offended by this use.
One significant difference between ProZ powwows and native American ones is that at the latter, alchol is apparently forbidden. (see
www.ictinc.ca/blog/the-pow-wow-protocol-for-first-nation-pow-wows )
Oliver
| | | | Paul Lambert
Sweden
Local time: 04:00
Member (2006)
Swedish to English
+ ...
| Exactly right, Oliver | Dec 28, 2014 |
Perhaps more than anyone else, those of us in the language professions should have a sense for metaphors.
| | | | | Scuk is powpow in Czech | Jan 1, 2015 |
scooke wrote:
Much thanks, meegwetch,
Shane
Dear Shane,
I made a presentation "Scuk is on ProZ.com powpow", for Czech reader
http://www.condak.cz/nove/2014-12/14/cs/00.html
Scuk je na ProZ.com powpow
PF 2015,
Milan
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