| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Off topic: "Hen" is official now Thread poster: Heinrich Pesch
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Tim Drayton 
Cyprus
Local time: 01:51
Turkish to English
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| Gender neutral languages | Jul 31, 2014 |
I wonder which other languages are gender neutral like Turkish, which is (almost entirely) gender neutral:
Turkish 'o' = 'he, she, it'
'onun' = 'his, her, its' etc.
(I say almost entirely because there are some nouns borrowed from Arabic which are capable of taking a feminine form e.g. 'müdür' = 'manager'; 'müdüre' = 'woman manager', although the latter is archaic in modern Turkish, or at best used jocularly).
I believe that most languages in East... See more I wonder which other languages are gender neutral like Turkish, which is (almost entirely) gender neutral:
Turkish 'o' = 'he, she, it'
'onun' = 'his, her, its' etc.
(I say almost entirely because there are some nouns borrowed from Arabic which are capable of taking a feminine form e.g. 'müdür' = 'manager'; 'müdüre' = 'woman manager', although the latter is archaic in modern Turkish, or at best used jocularly).
I believe that most languages in East Asia are gender neutral. Is this so? ▲ Collapse
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Tim Drayton wrote:
I wonder which other languages are gender neutral like Turkish, which is (almost entirely) gender neutral:
Turkish 'o' = 'he, she, it'
'onun' = 'his, her, its' etc.
(I say almost entirely because there are some nouns borrowed from Arabic which are capable of taking a feminine form e.g. 'müdür' = 'manager'; 'müdüre' = 'woman manager', although the latter is archaic in modern Turkish, or at best used jocularly).
I believe that most languages in East Asia are gender neutral. Is this so?
Japanese is not, it has gender-specific pronouns. Normal nouns don't have a gender though, which is nice.
| | | | Tim Drayton
Cyprus
Local time: 01:51
Turkish to English
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| I was on the wrong lines | Jul 31, 2014 |
Orrin Cummins wrote: Tim Drayton wrote:
I wonder which other languages are gender neutral like Turkish, which is (almost entirely) gender neutral:
Turkish 'o' = 'he, she, it'
'onun' = 'his, her, its' etc.
(I say almost entirely because there are some nouns borrowed from Arabic which are capable of taking a feminine form e.g. 'müdür' = 'manager'; 'müdüre' = 'woman manager', although the latter is archaic in modern Turkish, or at best used jocularly).
I believe that most languages in East Asia are gender neutral. Is this so? Japanese is not, it has gender-specific pronouns. Normal nouns don't have a gender though, which is nice.
Oh yes, I knew there was something to do with there being no gender in Japanese, but we are talking about grammatical gender as in there being no masculine/feminine/neuter nouns as you get in most European languages. Turkish doesn't have this either, thankfully. Thanks for the insight. In fact, Japanese has a wealth of pronouns depending on how respectful you are being, doesn't it?
Are there other languages that have only one pronoun for he, she and it?
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 06:51
Chinese to English
| Chinese is phonetically neutral | Jul 31, 2014 |
In Chinese there is only one word for he/she/it - ta. It's written in three different ways, but this is a fairly recent innovation.
My kids' inability to get the he/she distinction drives me crazy. They're mostly English native, but this one carry-over from Chinese is really conspicuous
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Phil Hand wrote: My kids' inability to get the he/she distinction drives me crazy. They're mostly English native, but this one carry-over from Chinese is really conspicuous
One more reason to jump on the "universal it" bandwagon 
Not to mention, the lines are really going to start blurring when technology implants kick into high gear. What would you call something that is 50% human male and 50% machine?
"hit"?
I won't say what that would make the 50% female/machine hybrid then...
| | | | | Wondering when 'they' becomes accepted.. if ever? | Aug 5, 2014 |
Finnish and our handy 'hän' for both genders has blessings and curses.
We can avoid the cumbersome 'he or she', 'he/she' dilemma but having just one genderless word for it can create problems, too.
A good example with subtitling where space is often limited: finding painful workarounds when trying to gracefully refer to someone off-screen, after just talking about two people of different genders, and then trying to pinpoint just one of them.
Or the classic: 'She said to him... See more Finnish and our handy 'hän' for both genders has blessings and curses.
We can avoid the cumbersome 'he or she', 'he/she' dilemma but having just one genderless word for it can create problems, too.
A good example with subtitling where space is often limited: finding painful workarounds when trying to gracefully refer to someone off-screen, after just talking about two people of different genders, and then trying to pinpoint just one of them.
Or the classic: 'She said to him that....' = 'Hän sanoi hänelle..' uhh, nope.
But yes, wonder if anyone has news for the more and more common usage of 'they, them' in English when referring to him or her (whose gender you may not know or don't want to specify)?
Living with an Aussie fiance, I've now become accustomed to him using this colloquially - to the point where I have now caught myself using 'they' myself when referring to he/she. Even managed to write it down a few times... and then slapping my fingers for being bad.
Apparently that was not frowned upon Down Under, even in school. I'm sure some other native English users will gasp in horror like I did when I heard about this attitude in English classes there. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | any other languages that use 'it' in colloquial forms for 'he or she'? | Aug 5, 2014 |
After some coffee, this matter occurred to me:
Does any other language use 'it' for referring to 'he' or 'she' in everyday speech? Finnish actually does!
And it is all common and acceptable to do so - I dare say that people use more 'it' to refer to a person than the official (and more formal) 'hän' when referring to a third party.
This also applies 'them' - 'he', for people actually - but colloquially we use 'ne' - the pronoun reserved for 'them, those' when one would refer t... See more After some coffee, this matter occurred to me:
Does any other language use 'it' for referring to 'he' or 'she' in everyday speech? Finnish actually does!
And it is all common and acceptable to do so - I dare say that people use more 'it' to refer to a person than the official (and more formal) 'hän' when referring to a third party.
This also applies 'them' - 'he', for people actually - but colloquially we use 'ne' - the pronoun reserved for 'them, those' when one would refer to animals, plants, inanimate objects etc.
I'm sure there are other languages like this... maybe should put up a new topic and ask people here.
Oh yes.. and also, many people with pets use the 'for humans only hän' for he/she, (instead of 'it' = 'se' that would be the proper word) when referring to their beloved pets.
It is a topsy turvy world. ▲ Collapse
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The Swedes tend to 'borrow' English words, but hen sounds odd...
He or she in English is not a problem.
Check any comprehensive standard dictionary.
she:
1. refers to a female person or animal.
2. refers to things personified as feminine, such as cars, ships, and nations.
he:
1. refers to a male person or animal.
2. refers to an indefinite antecedent such as one, whoever, or anybody.
3. refers to a person or animal of un... See more The Swedes tend to 'borrow' English words, but hen sounds odd...
He or she in English is not a problem.
Check any comprehensive standard dictionary.
she:
1. refers to a female person or animal.
2. refers to things personified as feminine, such as cars, ships, and nations.
he:
1. refers to a male person or animal.
2. refers to an indefinite antecedent such as one, whoever, or anybody.
3. refers to a person or animal of unknown or unspecified sex.
Number three is especially useful when translating into English from Swedish. ▲ Collapse
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 00:51
Spanish to English
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| Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:51
Hebrew to English
And I employ it in translations too.
Too often I find myself typing an unnatural, convoluted, artificial and awkward sentence in English simply because I'm trying to avoid a singular they, then I remind myself that if they (the client - singular ) don't like it, they can lump it (or just change it after the fact).
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 01:51
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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TOPIC STARTER | doesn't apply to Swedish | May 9, 2015 |
Its ok in English to use what ever seems appropriate, but in Swedish they needed a third form in addition to han and hon (sounds like German Hahn/Huhn and means the same). There was no "it" in Swedish as a neutral third person singular.
They is per definition plural, but there are already so many irregularities in English that it really does not seem to matter.
| | | | | Definitely useful in certain contexts | May 9, 2015 |
I have no objections to a singular 'they' in many contexts, but sometimes it is still necessary to distinguish singular and plural, and a neutral singular would make life simpler where the source language also has a gender-neutral singular.
In legal contexts at least, now that a parent, spouse, sibling, relative, partner... and all sorts of individuals have equal rights regardless of gender, or gender is simply not relevant.
'They' is assumed to be plural, and repeating... See more I have no objections to a singular 'they' in many contexts, but sometimes it is still necessary to distinguish singular and plural, and a neutral singular would make life simpler where the source language also has a gender-neutral singular.
In legal contexts at least, now that a parent, spouse, sibling, relative, partner... and all sorts of individuals have equal rights regardless of gender, or gender is simply not relevant.
'They' is assumed to be plural, and repeating the noun or he/she is often extra cumbersome in language that is already cumbersome enough.
OK, Man has embraced Woman since time immemorial, as our lecturer explained. However, some legislation in Denmark is being re-worded to avoid the gender question as far as possible. (Husband and Wife are now Spouse 1 and Spouse 2 and may biologically be the same gender, and children now have a Parent 1 and Parent 2.) Simply using 'he' in the translation doesn't seem to be an option. At least you could call the wife or mother 'she' under the old system!
It has to be he/she in some situations to distinguish the individual from the joint or collective entity.
The same problem exists to a large extent in Danish, where may singular pronouns indicate gender, but the reflexive pronouns (himself/herself) and the reflexive possessive (his/her) are neutral.
So in Danish you can say 'If spouse 1 sells [its] separate property...' and all sorts of things like that quite naturally.
A child is grammatically neutral, and in a formal context may be called 'it'.
Adults are not so easy: a person is also neutral, but it is not generally acceptable to use the pronoun for 'it'.
There is a common Danish expression that literally means 'the one concerned', often translated as 'that person' or 'the person in question', but a neat pronoun in English would be useful.
Even Swedish has to emphasise that 'hen' is not declined - it is simply 'hen' in all cases.
Otherwise I would find the genitive problematical (but I am NOT speaking for native Swedes). I would end up with the regular feminine. ▲ Collapse
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 04:21
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER | Pronouns in Hindi are gender neutral | May 11, 2015 |
Tim Drayton wrote:
I wonder which other languages are gender neutral like Turkish, which is (almost entirely) gender neutral:
In Hindi, all the pronouns are gender-neutral, but that doesn't mean Hindi is a gender-neutral language, far from it.
In Hindi, the gender is indicated by the forms other parts of the speech, particularly verbs, take. Every verb has a feminine and masculine form (Hindi has only two genders - masculine and feminine). All nouns too are arbitrarily decided as either masculine or feminine.
Furthermore, like the "he" of English, which becomes gender-neutral when the gender of the subject is not known, in Hindi too, the gender-indicating portions of the sentence (mainly verbs) take the masculine form when the gender of the subject is unknown.
Because of these peculiarities, it is much more harder to make Hindi gender-neutral, as adding a new gender-neutral pronoun or using the gender-neutral plural pronoun wouldn't solve the problem.
I had sometime ago written an article on this topic which is available at this link for what it is worth:
http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/709/
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