| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Client makes unexplained deductions from invoices Thread poster: Jennifer Forbes
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Sheila Wilson 
Spain
Local time: 22:53
Member (2007)
English
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| I was going to say she's passing on her bank charges | Dec 1, 2016 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
She doesn't make a deduction from my invoices every time, just sometimes. The transfer is a SEPA credit from the client's bank account in France to my HSBC account in the UK. France is in the Eurozone, is it not?
No intermediary bank is involved in the transfer. HSBC does not charge me for transfers from abroad to my account. I presume it takes its cut on the exchange rate.
I've no idea what this agency's status is with the French tax authorities.
It could well be that her bank is charging her to make the transfer. It's a myth that transfers within the EU are free. Banks aren't allowed to charge more for transfers to another member state than they charge for transfers within their own. That's all. Maybe there are still banks in France that charge, I don't know. But of course, (a) she has no right to pass them on to you, and (b) it would apply to every invoice payment, not selected ones (unless the ones that are received in full are below some limit?).
I'm having problems with receiving money from Switzerland at the moment. Euro transfers received from there are being charged a minimum of €18 by my Spanish bank! A practice that started in January this year. However, one of my Swiss clients pays by a transfer that shows a number in Swiss Francs. I'm not sure exactly where the currency is changed, but sometimes I get a few euros more than expected, sometimes it's a few less. But far better than the guaranteed €18 fee, even if that is tax-deductible. The only problem is the one that Annamaria mentioned: how to account for the differences. But in my case they're very small so I'm just not mentioning them.
| | | | Jennifer Forbes
Local time: 22:53
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER In memoriam | Not bank charges | Dec 2, 2016 |
If the short payments were due to bank charges at her end, of which she would be aware herself, she could have said so. She did not.
Also, the fact that other translators have reported similarly unexplained reduced payments leads me to suppose that this ploy is deliberate.
I could explain my reasoning in greater detail but I don't want to bore you all to death ...
I have already made my negative Blue Board entry - without "threatening" to do so in any way - and the last message... See more If the short payments were due to bank charges at her end, of which she would be aware herself, she could have said so. She did not.
Also, the fact that other translators have reported similarly unexplained reduced payments leads me to suppose that this ploy is deliberate.
I could explain my reasoning in greater detail but I don't want to bore you all to death ...
I have already made my negative Blue Board entry - without "threatening" to do so in any way - and the last message I had from her was a furious and "wounded" email objecting to it, to which I haven't replied.
Maybe I'll send an invoice for the short payments, I haven't decided yet. I don't intend to threaten to report her to the tax authorities - I don't want to issue threats that I can't carry out and I wouldn't know how to go about it anyway. A can of worms I don't want to open.
I just don't want any more dealings with the lady.
I've learned a lesson from this experience, even at this late stage in my career. When one has a bad "gut feeling" about a client's attitude from the outset, it's usually right and one should heed it!
Thank you again, everyone, for your comments and ideas. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You can't invoice the missing amounts again | Dec 2, 2016 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
Maybe I'll send an invoice for the short payments, I haven't decided yet.
From an accounting point of view, you can't send another invoice for the missing items. That would mean invoicing them twice, and as a result, she would owe you twice the differences.
Her debt is already certain and due - you sent her an invoice, she accepted it, paid it partially. Now SHE needs to pay the rest.
But you could send her a reminder listing all the missing amounts.
Here in Romania often (always? not sure) companies send each other such reminders or statements at the end of the year, asking the recipient company to confirm that such amount was outstanding at the end of the year. You could send it at the end of the quarter.
E.g. Notice of amounts outstanding/unpaid. As at 31 Dec, based on my accounts and invoices issued and sent to you, you owe me the following amounts: ...
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:53
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Jenny Forbes wrote:
......
I have already made my negative Blue Board entry - without "threatening" to do so in any way - and the last message I had from her was a furious and "wounded" email objecting to it, to which I haven't replied.....
Past experience has taught me that from the agencies' point of view, the BB is really important, because bad ratings imply the possibility of being suspended or banned from Proz, i.e. not being able to find any translators.
The same past experience has taught me that if you take the matter up directly with Proz (having done everything else you reasonably could), Proz itself will investigate. This puts the fear of God into non-payers.
I suggest you consider this route.
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TonyTK
German to English
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| Nice one, Mervyn | Dec 2, 2016 |
Mervyn Henderson wrote:
... you could accept another job, not too long and done as quickly as possible (because that will probably be your last job), leaving every other sentence or so untranslated. When she asks about it, say "Well, I translated it, didn't I?"
Mervyn
"They go low, we go fetch the baseball bat"
| | | | | You can't invoice twice... | Dec 2, 2016 |
Annamaria Amik wrote: Jenny Forbes wrote:
Maybe I'll send an invoice for the short payments, I haven't decided yet.
From an accounting point of view, you can't send another invoice for the missing items. That would mean invoicing them twice, and as a result, she would owe you twice the differences. Her debt is already certain and due - you sent her an invoice, she accepted it, paid it partially. Now SHE needs to pay the rest. But you could send her a reminder listing all the missing amounts. Here in Romania often (always? not sure) companies send each other such reminders or statements at the end of the year, asking the recipient company to confirm that such amount was outstanding at the end of the year. You could send it at the end of the quarter. E.g. Notice of amounts outstanding/unpaid. As at 31 Dec, based on my accounts and invoices issued and sent to you, you owe me the following amounts: ...
... but you can issue a debit note for each difference...
| | | | | Hidden bank charges? | Dec 2, 2016 |
I had a similar issue with a private client (outside Europe) quite recently and it all boiled up to bank charges (curiously enough the same bank…).
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:53
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Teresa Borges wrote:
I had a similar issue with a private client (outside Europe) quite recently and it all boiled up to bank charges (curiously enough the same bank…).
FWIW:
I regularly invoice clients in other EU Member States (Norway, Italy, Germany, Spain) and the payment notes I get from HSBC (FirstDirect) always confirm that the amount paid to me was exactly the same amount for which I invoiced. Nobody ever deducts "bank charges".
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Jennifer Forbes
Local time: 22:53
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER In memoriam
Tom in London wrote: Teresa Borges wrote:
I had a similar issue with a private client (outside Europe) quite recently and it all boiled up to bank charges (curiously enough the same bank…). FWIW: I regularly invoice clients in other EU Member States (Norway, Italy, Germany, Spain) and the payment notes I get from HSBC (FirstDirect) always confirm that the amount paid to me was exactly the same amount for which I invoiced. Nobody ever deducts "bank charges".
Thanks, Tom. Exactly. As I keep saying here, the deductions did not concern bank charges. I too invoice in euros to clients in various EU countries (France, Germany, Spain, Hungary, Greece, the Netherlands, Belgium) and the amount transferred to my HSBC account in the UK (by SEPA credit) according to HSBC's advice notes is always the amount invoiced. No bank charges. Except in the case we're discussing.
| | | | | Very likely bank charges | Dec 2, 2016 |
Teresa Borges wrote:
I had a similar issue with a private client (outside Europe) quite recently and it all boiled up to bank charges (curiously enough the same bank…).
Why do so many translation clients only pay via PayPal?
Because it was built for and is owned by eBay. It is standard practice that, upon receiving payment via credit card, THE SELLER will bear the card operator fees. If you ever buy directly from the business owner, they might give you a discount for paying in cold hard cash.
PayPal's only option is fees being deducted from the payee's receivables. The only problem is that PayPal fees are abusively expensive, typically 6.5%~7.5% of the whole amount in Brazil, PLUS 3.5% lower-than-market foreign currency exchange rates.
Meanwhile P2P systems like Moneygram and Western Union give the option to either charge the sender or the receiver, and their fees are quite reasonable, usually around USD 5 for transfers up to USD 3K.
Bank fees for sending an international wire transfer vary a lot, AFAIK in the US from $10 to $65. Bank fees for receiving a wire transfer, e.g. in Brazil, also vary a lot, e.g. from BRL 100 to BRL 350. And both are fixed per-transaction fees, they don't vary proportionally to the amount at stake.
What I mean is that if the invoice says $1,000, the client's accountant only has that amount to s(p)end. If the bank charges $50 in fees for sending the wire transfer, there is nowhere else that accountant can take them from. So the translator will receive $950. I haven't yet seen a company that has a budget allocated for "bank fees to pay suppliers". That would be preposterous.
Vendors are expected to include in their price any costs incurred in getting paid. That's how business works.
In order to illustrate further, PayPal strictly forbids the seller to surcharge buyers for their fees. Nevertheless, now and then I must do it, when sworn translations under Brazilian law are involved. The law determines mandatory NET prices. That law is old enough (from 1943) to envision the client bringing cash to my door. The same law explicitly forbids granting discounts on the statutory rates to anyone, for any reason whatsoever. As PayPal is established in Brazil too, both of us have respectively business/sworn translator licenses to keep, so Brazilian law prevails over PayPal's internal policies, if we ever get to discuss this.
I include the receiving payment expenses in my translation rates, the "standard" rate/method being PayPal (the most expensive). So a client choosing to pay via a P2P system instead will get a 10% discount from me, i.e. the fees PayPal would otherwise deduct.
Wire transfers cost on both sides, sender and receiver. My most frequently recurring client (in the USA) pays me every two weeks. Of course, when they pay me via wire transfer, they deduct their bank's sending fee, and I get deducted my bank's receiving fee. I found the break-even point between these fees and PayPal's 10% total at USD 700. So when that fortnightly payment is above $700, I ask them to send via bank. If it's below, I tell them to use PayPal.
However this threshold also takes into account another factor: outrageously high Brazilian interest rates, about 18%/month (sic!). A wire transfer gets credited to my account on the same or, at worst, on the next day. It takes PayPal 3-5 business days to credit a transfer from my account with them in a foreign currency to my bank in BRL.
It's part of doing business to have all costs included in the provider's rates. IMHO it's a good marketing strategy to do it transparently, so the client knows what they are paying for your translation services, and how much is lost/wasted/consumed in payment processing, so they can make an intelligent choice.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:53
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Listen, people ! | Dec 2, 2016 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
.....As I keep saying here, the deductions did not concern bank charges. ....
Alas, it seems other posters are just not listening.
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I'm not sure about the tax situation in your country Jenny, but in mine, it would be a problem to receive short payments. Especially if the total value over a year was significant. You might just want to check with your accountant to be sure there isn't something you need to do to prevent any future fiscal woes.
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| Exchange rate volatility? | Dec 2, 2016 |
Maybe:
- You send her today an invoice for £100, which are €118.
- When she pays (in 2 months time) she needs €125 to buy £100.
- She then just sends you €118.
| | | | | Questionable practice indeed! | Dec 5, 2016 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
Yes, I asked for an explanation. Her reply was along the lines of "Well, I've paid you, haven't I?"
A difficult person to deal with generally, which is why I have decided to stop working with her.
The reply is "well, no, you haven't".
It's the frst time I have ever heard of this sort of practice. You are right not to work with them. But it's always a pain when that becomes the only solution as problems can often be ironed out. These people are penny-pinching and not respecting the contracts they sign.
| | | | | Requirement to itemize | Dec 5, 2016 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
Thanks for your comments, everyone.
She doesn't make a deduction from my invoices every time, just sometimes. The transfer is a SEPA credit from the client's bank account in France to my HSBC account in the UK. France is in the Eurozone, is it not?
No intermediary bank is involved in the transfer. HSBC does not charge me for transfers from abroad to my account. I presume it takes its cut on the exchange rate.
I've no idea what this agency's status is with the French tax authorities.
I can only assume that making these small deductions is a deliberate policy, perhaps, as Thayenga points out, with the aim of eventually accumulating a "nice little earner", especially as other translators have reported similar behaviour by this agency.
[Edited at 2016-12-01 14:09 GMT]
In any event, the amount of the invoice and the payment made have to match. If there are deductions for whatever reason (payment on account, expenses, etc), not only does this have to appear as a contractual term, even if just in a mail exchange, it also has to be set out on the invoice - thus yours, if you are the one to cover them. She cannot of her own accord, decide to pay less than the amount of the invoice. if either you or the agent ever has a spot check, then it is going to involve time and money to check and show who, what, where, when and why.
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