| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | Agencies lowering my rates over the years Thread poster: Nathalie Suteau (X)
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Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:35
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| There can be huge divergence between agencies | Feb 7, 2016 |
Sorana_M. wrote:
I believe the community rate for English to Romanian is 0.08 EUR/source word. So would I suddenly become competitive if I accepted less than half of that number?
I repeat, what you have been doing is - by your own brave and honest admission - no longer working. You have no work. Is some income better than no income? Nothing will change if you continue as you are.
Your discussion has centered on rates. What I will say in regard to this is that agencies working in the same country and apparently the same markets can pay hugely different amounts.
When I started as a freelancer, I was approached by Japanese agency A that seemed serious. They put me through a complicated recruitment procedure that even included a telephone interview. It all seemed very professional - which no doubt was the intent. It did not smell like a bottom-feeding agency.
However, the rate they offered me was so low that I felt that I just could not accept, so I never did a job for them.
Shortly after that I found agency B, with which I negotiated a rate per character that is 80% higher than that offered by the agency A. A few months ago I was contacted by agency C and here I managed to get them agree to a rate 10% higher than agency B.
Just recently I completed my first project for agency D, which I charge 8% more than agency C. All these agencies are located in Japan, by the way, so it was not a case of different countries or cultures. (It's not been that simple as that of course, as I have dealt with many other clients in the US, the UK and Europe over that time.)
I thought it was interesting that the first agency I talked to managed to make a terrible rate seem like the market rate. If I had given up and meekly accepted the rate that agency A offered me I would be struggling to survive.
Instead I kept looking. It's taken a long time, but as a result I can charge more than twice as much to my latest client as I would have charged agency A. And these are all agencies, not direct clients!
The act of trying itself, and an openness to different approaches, are important.
Regards
Dan
| | | | | Some comments | Feb 7, 2016 |
Sorana_M. wrote:
I'm sorry, but I can't afford to invest in memberships and all of the tools of the trade that potential clients work with. Taxation laws have just changed in Romania and I will have to pay more this year, whether I close down my business or not. The rule is "pay first, settle the matter later".
Anna Spanoudaki-Thurm wrote:
You cannot afford not to invest. A membership in ProZ for example costs ca. 100 EUR. My first membership paid the next day. The investment of money in my membership is negligible compared to the money I have received from clients that have found me through ProZ.
If resources are limited, as it should be the case when one is not having enough demand, investments must be made with wisdom.
Incidentally, I am more familiar with Romanian than the average Brazilian. My first ex-wife's parents were from Romania, and that's the language they usually spoke here in Brazil. After 15 years, or even before, I was quite smart at extracting the gist of any conversation in Romanian. For the record, my ex-wife never went to school in Romanian, nor studied the language, though I recall that she could read it and understand it with ease.
After the divorce, one girlfriend of mine was actually born in Bucharest, her family managed to escape from the Soviet oppression while she was in her teens. Of course, she and her parents also spoke Romanian at home. She went to school in Romania up to junior high, so she probably learned to write it properly. However she completed her studies and went to medical school in Brazil, plus some part of it in Germany. I doubt that she, an accomplished ophthalmologist, would be able to properly explain any medical procedure in Romanian.
My point is that neither of these two women would be able to translate properly and reliably from or into Romanian. Generalizing, I guess that most Romanian language translators who are up-to-date with the language are expected to be found within Romania, a country that not so long ago got out from under the Soviet Union, and even more recently freed itself from communist dictatorship. The necessary adjustments to become a global player (and thus generate translation demand) take time.
As the language is not so widespread, its demand is smallish, and Romania hasn't yet become a more global player like Poland, the Czech Republic, and a few others that followed a similar path.
I spent 5 years as a free user on Proz, watching the demand for my language pair: EN-PT, until it reached and sustained a viable level. That was when I took the plunge and became a paying member.
For the record, I am a free user in most similar/competing portals, waiting for the day when the demand in any of them becomes sustainable. TranslatorsCafe has some demand for my pair, but it's still too fickle to justify the membership. So far, Proz is my only paid membership. However with all due respect to Proz, if one of my working languages were Polish, I'd probably be better off at Globtra. Maybe there is a similar mostly-Romanian translation portal, I wouldn't know.
So my advice is to be a free user in every translation portal that allows it, and monitor the demand for YOUR specific language pair in each one. As soon as it is sufficiently high and sustainable, THEN take the plunge and invest on it! Payback should be quick.
| | | | | Average wage rate | Feb 7, 2016 |
Hello Sorana,
The rates you are getting offered are in line with the Romanian average monthly wage rate, which is around €400 (net).
I spend 6 months a year in Poland, which is a country whose average wage rate is just slightly above yours, around €700 (net), and I know approx. 10 Polish translators: their rates are between €0.03 and €0.05.
If you could translate between 2000 and 3000 words per day, even with that very low rate that you are getting ... See more Hello Sorana,
The rates you are getting offered are in line with the Romanian average monthly wage rate, which is around €400 (net).
I spend 6 months a year in Poland, which is a country whose average wage rate is just slightly above yours, around €700 (net), and I know approx. 10 Polish translators: their rates are between €0.03 and €0.05.
If you could translate between 2000 and 3000 words per day, even with that very low rate that you are getting offered you could still triple the average monthly wage rate in your country. ▲ Collapse
| | | | S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 20:35
English to Romanian
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
Hello Sorana,
The rates you are getting offered are in line with the Romanian average monthly wage rate, which is around €400 (net).
I spend 6 months a year in Poland, which is a country whose average wage rate is just slightly above yours, around €700 (net), and I know approx. 10 Polish translators: their rates are between €0.03 and €0.05.
If you could translate between 2000 and 3000 words per day, even with that very low rate that you are getting offered you could still triple the average monthly wage rate in your country.
Q.E.D.
That's exactly what I was talking about.
José, Romanian and Portuguese are not that far apart.
[Edited at 2016-02-08 06:48 GMT]
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| I didn't know | Feb 8, 2016 |
Nathalie Suteau wrote:
...Let's not forget that Proz belongs to an agency that offers very poor rates.
Where did you find that piece of information?
| | | | Nathalie Suteau (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:35
English to French
TOPIC STARTER | Information not valid, sorry | Feb 8, 2016 |
Sorry, I double-checked and it seems Proz doesn't belong to any agency but I'm pretty sure it used too.
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 18:35
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| Rita Pang
Canada
Local time: 13:35
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
+ ...
Moderator of this forum | Rate, or demand? | Feb 8, 2016 |
Sorana_M. wrote:
José, Romanian and Portuguese are not that far apart.
[Edited at 2016-02-08 06:48 GMT]
I don't translate into (Brazilian) Portuguese, but I do translate FROM it into English and Chinese. Despite my clearly pointing out that I don't translate into PT, I get requests about this type of project - I'd say on average once a month. Clients of mine frequently ask me to refer EN>PT translators to them.
Obviously, my sole experience does not mean that Portuguese is THAT far apart, but I'd think given Brazil's sheer size (in terms of population/demand, industry, entertainment, all that...) the demand is simply much higher than Romanian.
I am not here to push anyone up against a wall, and apologize in advance if I may speak like I do. All I am trying to get at is it's obvious that some language pairs simply don't get as high a rate as others (ask me how I know? Heck, I am a Chinese translator!) That being said, there ARE ways to earn at your ideal rate, but admittedly, it takes time. Disclaimer: I am not quite there yet at all, but I'm working towards it, with every email I sent out to potential or existing clients of mine. If something doesn't work - try another method. Keep looking. Market reality is one thing, making yourself stand out is another.
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S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 20:35
English to Romanian
| Family of languages | Feb 8, 2016 |
Rita Pang wrote:
I don't translate into (Brazilian) Portuguese, but I do translate FROM it into English and Chinese. Despite my clearly pointing out that I don't translate into PT, I get requests about this type of project - I'd say on average once a month. Clients of mine frequently ask me to refer EN>PT translators to them.
Obviously, my sole experience does not mean that Portuguese is THAT far apart, but I'd think given Brazil's sheer size (in terms of population/demand, industry, entertainment, all that...) the demand is simply much higher than Romanian.
I am not here to push anyone up against a wall, and apologize in advance if I may speak like I do. All I am trying to get at is it's obvious that some language pairs simply don't get as high a rate as others (ask me how I know? Heck, I am a Chinese translator!) That being said, there ARE ways to earn at your ideal rate, but admittedly, it takes time. Disclaimer: I am not quite there yet at all, but I'm working towards it, with every email I sent out to potential or existing clients of mine. If something doesn't work - try another method. Keep looking. Market reality is one thing, making yourself stand out is another.
Rita, I was referring to the fact that Romanian and Portuguese belong to the same family of languages. If I turn on the TV, close my eyes, and listen to some "novela" (O Clone has been particularly successful in Romania, following in the footsteps of Escrava Isaura and Terra Nostra), I'm pretty sure I can understand at least some words, if not whole (simple) sentences. The same works for Spanish.
There is one thing I've noticed, though: in Romania, our educational system is still teaching us that, in order to be successful, we must cover as many areas of expertise as we can. Learn as many languages as we can (I've just browsed the local job portals, and there are demands for Romanians knowing English, Italian, and Spanish as a 3-language pack, and there is even an ad searching for Romanians performing technical translations from Italian into English!!!, if you can imagine that), aim for multiple domains, gather knowledge in several directions. It is one aspect that I believe should be reformed here, there are many high-school graduates who are confused about their capabilities, about what college to choose or whether to attend college at all.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:35
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| I must be missing something | Feb 8, 2016 |
Sorana_M. wrote: Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
If you could translate between 2000 and 3000 words per day, even with that very low rate that you are getting offered you could still triple the average monthly wage rate in your country. Q.E.D. That's exactly what I was talking about.
In that case I don't see the problem. I would love to earn triple the average monthly wage in my country. I would love to earn double, for that matter.
Regards
Dan
| | | | S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 20:35
English to Romanian
| Low rate issue | Feb 8, 2016 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
In that case I don't see the problem.
I thought 0.02 - 0.03 EUR/source word would be considered an offence by any Prozian, regardless of their country of residence. Just check the archive on this area.
Besides, many argue that low rates = low quality.
So, the theory is perfect, it's the practice that's killing us.
| | | | S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 20:35
English to Romanian
| Double standard? | Feb 8, 2016 |
It is true that, in Romania, the average monthly salary currently equals 422.67 EUR. But that amount is already tax-free - meaning net.
While, presuming that I were able to translate 2,000 to 3,000 words/day - and that is not little, been there, done that for several years - at 0.02 - 0.03 EUR/source word - I would have to extract 32% of that number and give it to the State. So I would really be working for... 0.0136 - 0.0204 EUR/source word.
And Proz has taught ... See more It is true that, in Romania, the average monthly salary currently equals 422.67 EUR. But that amount is already tax-free - meaning net.
While, presuming that I were able to translate 2,000 to 3,000 words/day - and that is not little, been there, done that for several years - at 0.02 - 0.03 EUR/source word - I would have to extract 32% of that number and give it to the State. So I would really be working for... 0.0136 - 0.0204 EUR/source word.
And Proz has taught me that this is "working for peanuts", "spiraling down", "going unprofessional", "losing yourself because of the lack of time to look for proper clients", "dumping" and so on.
Now, all of a sudden, this ceases to be "working for peanuts" because, at 0.0204 EUR/sw x 2,000 w/day x 21 business days, I would double the average monthly salary in my country?
Doesn't this sound like double standard?
If I were to enter these rates - now seemingly considered OK for Romania - in my profile, would any potential client out there consider me reliable? Because this is NOT what this forum has taught me. ▲ Collapse
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Maybe most Prozians (and certainly one formerly very vocal Prozian) do have very inflexible opinions about the relationship between quality, price and economic conditions in the countries relevant for a given language pair.
Earning €0.02 per word does mean that you have to translate quickly just to get up to something like the minimum or average wage in your country. Thus, I would not say that there is no relationship between price and quality, just that it is not black-and-white ... See more Maybe most Prozians (and certainly one formerly very vocal Prozian) do have very inflexible opinions about the relationship between quality, price and economic conditions in the countries relevant for a given language pair.
Earning €0.02 per word does mean that you have to translate quickly just to get up to something like the minimum or average wage in your country. Thus, I would not say that there is no relationship between price and quality, just that it is not black-and-white and is not clearly predictable.
(In Germany, as a freelancer, you would have to translate around 1000 words per hour just to earn the equivalent of the German minimum wage of €8.50 per hour [wage = with min. 4 wks. paid vacation/ ca. 10 paid holidays/ avg. 10 days sick leave, with half of health and retirement insurance paid by employer, with 100% of working hours paid, with no periods without work and with no expenses]. More to the point, you would also have to translate around 100,000 words per month and around 1,200,000 per year.)
The math for the Romanian situation is obviously different. The minimum and possibly average wage are lower, but the tax burden sounds comparably high.
As far as I am concerned, the key is realizing that there is no relevant "going price" or any universal "translation market": Somewhere Romanian translations are being sold every day for high prices (see Liviu's example from the other thread). They are probably not being sold and certainly not being purchased for high prices by ProZ agencies that regularly work with Romanian translators. Anyone with the inclination and an economic interest in investing time in the search can find dozens of Romanian translators who would be likely to produce similar quality for 0.02 to 0.03 euros per word.
You have no credentials to convince anyone that you are an expert in any subject-matter field (however, your English seems clearly good enough to stand out in terms of ease of communication and that can help): Your USP has to be your language pair, but your language pair is only a USP for clients who do not normally deal with Romanian.
The only way for you to earn, say, 0.08 to 0.20 euros per word is to find clients that don't normally need you, but do sometimes need you, that is: clients who do not have any inclination or significant economic motivation to spend time searching for a competitor to produce comparable quality for a third or a tenth of your price.
You want agencies that do not offer translations into Romanian, but might be happy to have you on their books just in case (and as an EU language, Romanian probably comes up far more often than a lot of people would think). Agencies (or particularly colleagues) specializing in Slavic languages might fairly regularly receive requests for Romanian from clients who do not know better. Better informed clients might also expect agencies or colleagues offering several Western romance languages to be able to deal with Romanian. Foreign direct clients are obviously also attractive.
Things are far easier in some language pairs, and you will need to be very creative and determined to build up a client base (over the course of several years) that will permit you to earn the money you want in a reasonable manner. And as I said before, my personal recommendation would be to take what I can get for now and then continually build on the foundation that develops out of this. That is what worked for me.
Edit: ... and Dan and Rita, as I just realized while taking another look at the thread here (sorry for repeating what had already been said).
[Edited at 2016-02-09 14:57 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Nathalie Suteau wrote:
Hello,
My language pair is EN=>FR, specialized in IT.
So is that FR or IT? *confused*
Just kidding.
I've been working for the 3 same agencies for the past 15 years and all of them keep on decreasing my rates. I was at 0.11€ in 2000, I'm now between 0.075 and 0.08€.
The agencies are located in France and Belgium.
They put a huge pressure on me: I have to accept the new rates or they will stop working with me.
I have checked this board carefully and I've noticed that a lot of translators manage to get rates around 0.11-0.13€ through agencies located outside of France and Belgium.
Does some of you manage to get this type of rates for my language combination and specialization or is it such a myth?
Many thanks!
Nathalie
Much higher rates are probably possible in your pair, Nathalie. You may, however, need much better marketing. You can only get so far without dedicated, directed effort.
As a maximum plan, you sound like you have sufficient experience and probably credentials to go after direct clients with some confidence. Perhaps enough financial security to just get a new website and new printed materials made for you without needing to save for it. (You may be interested in what these ladies have to offer.) After that, you'd need to start going to conferences and getting in touch with people, perhaps write a blog, publish some articles, essentially be more visible and accessible to direct clients. Ideally, you'd work with your own proofreaders, editors, DTP people and consultants for full TEP and whatnot, so that you're better positioned to compete against (boutique) agencies and the kind of translators who work as solo practitioners with physical offices (if they still exist).
As a minimum plan, you could just tweak your CV and other materials for confidence, assertiveness, higher profile and otherwise improved presentation (e.g. optimize it for quick scanning (and eye glance plus 10 seconds) and memorability), to make a stronger impression as an expert and discourage bargaining manoeuvres of questionable nobility.
With this said, if you want to discourage the budget buying and bargain seeking and still get enough business, you will need to deliver a convincing presentation of quality instead. For direct clients it would be a good idea to also focus on security and comfort. They aren't necessarily going to act like they're in a supermarket, but but they still prefer to keep things simple (for them, not for you, alas ), and they're going to sleep easier if you can convince them that trusting you is a good move.
The above may also apply to agencies to some extent, but I don't really want to go there, as I'm not a big fan of agencies that put their own name on your work but expect to be pampered, spoiled and babysat like a consumer instead of acting like a pro. The very thought of using security, comfort and especially ease with agencies the same way as in B2C is enough to give me a fit, personally. It's my belief, though I can't really prove it, that employing this type of tactics with agencies and certain types of business clients can actually make translators lose respect, notably by making their work look easier than it is and, more importantly, by showing themselves to the client as being ready to accept that kind of low professional profile. We aren't a concierge industry, either.
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Dan Lucas wrote:
I thought it was interesting that the first agency I talked to managed to make a terrible rate seem like the market rate. If I had given up and meekly accepted the rate that agency A offered me I would be struggling to survive.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that agencies lie (okay, some do), but they have an interest in promoting a new reality, which means they're reports of surrounding reality are obviously not going to be your ideal source of objective information.
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