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Different rates for the domestic+foreign markets?
Thread poster: S_G_C
S_G_C
S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 18:00
English to Romanian
TOPIC STARTER
Puzzled Nov 10, 2015

Also, the domestic agency that has disappointed me has a favorable BlueBoard record. It disappointed me because it offered me the same low rates as everyone else. However, there are many comments - from foreign - not Romanian! - translators saying "it's a great/reliable/professional company". Plus, payment on time. Which contradicts some of the local opinions I've read on them and which made me be apprehensive.

I'm puzzled.

Meanwhile, I have had my suspicions confirmed,
... See more
Also, the domestic agency that has disappointed me has a favorable BlueBoard record. It disappointed me because it offered me the same low rates as everyone else. However, there are many comments - from foreign - not Romanian! - translators saying "it's a great/reliable/professional company". Plus, payment on time. Which contradicts some of the local opinions I've read on them and which made me be apprehensive.

I'm puzzled.

Meanwhile, I have had my suspicions confirmed, "my agency" is indeed treating translators differently, according to the country they reside in.

[Edited at 2015-11-10 15:58 GMT]
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Peter Zhuang
Peter Zhuang  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:00
German to English
+ ...
Making business decisions Nov 10, 2015

Preston Decker wrote:
Determining your rates based upon the idea of helping the translation community is not one of them.


I agree with everything you said.

If I consider a rate too low, it is because I think my time is better spent elsewhere, rather than because I want to defend the industry or an ideal. The decision is based purely on my personal financial considerations, as selfish as this may sound.

As already mentioned by a poster on this thread, translation is a globalised industry. This raises two questions: 1) Why should a person living in a developed country with high living costs get to decide how high the minimum rate should be? 2) Why should any translator be berated because they choose to charge a rate which they are comfortable with and which they can make a decent, honest living from?

Also, I don't think that all low-paying agencies cackle their way to the bank with a bagful of money while leaving only crumbs (or peanuts, as some would say) to translators. I've been told by some agencies simply do not charge their end client as much.

If an end client seeks out the cheapest available option, they are unlikely to pay three to four times more for the same job. People complaining about how low-cost translation services are taking away their jobs are probably barking up the wrong tree.


 
Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:00
English to German
I can see that, however ... Nov 10, 2015

Inga Petkelyte wrote:

I always respect argumented opinions. But sorry here, it seems that sometimes people discuss without having an idea.
If the gas for cooking, electricity, hot and cold water overall expense for 4 people is somewhat 60 euros per month, then even a 0,02 eur per word at full time ensures a relatively high standar of living. People do live well with such rates, they don't need demand anything.
I've been updating some my ads these couple past hours, there were three ads about translation services with indicated prices in one site: one had indicated 3,77 euros per page (an individual translator), another - 6 euros per page, aprox. 300 words (agency) and the highest was 11,68 euros per page (agency).
So if a charge of 6 euros per page enables payment for the office rent, the office expenses and several persons of the staff, then maybe those low rates are not so low there locally.
By this, I am not aiming to diminish opinions of anyone, only invite to see a little bit beyond your own reality bubbles and broaden up those opinions.


I can also see that translators on the whole don't ask for much, it doesn't matter where they live - it is just my impression when I read these threads, and it depends on how you define 'living well'.

In my language pair most translators tend to live in the 'more expensive countries', but still clients and agencies try to use every trick in the book to pay you less, and I waste quite a bit of time declining jobs and offers that are just not workable for someone living in Western Europe.


 
TranslateThis
TranslateThis  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:00
Spanish to English
+ ...
Crumbs Nov 10, 2015

Peter Zhuang wrote:
Also, I don't think that all low-paying agencies cackle their way to the bank with a bagful of money while leaving only crumbs (or peanuts, as some would say) to translators. I've been told by some agencies simply do not charge their end client as much.


Some of the biggest agencies lie about their budgets. They charge the end client $300 for a small job and pretend that they only have $20-$30 to pay the translator. I would call it crumbs... This is not just another anecdote; I have seen some of the invoices sent to me by mistake by PMs along with the job offer.

Of course, these are the agencies that receive translation work directly from major companies. There are a lot of intermediary agencies that simply resell these jobs at much lower rates, so if you want to make decent money, you basically need to negotiate better rates with the former and avoid the latter.

This is where many translators fail. They just accept the measly $20 because they haven't learned or don't like to negotiate, and they have no idea as to how much their work is worth.

Again, accepting lower rates in low-rate countries is one thing, but accepting low rates from 'rich countries' is just shooting ourselves in the foot.

[Edited at 2015-11-10 13:08 GMT]


 
Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:00
English to German
That is probably true Nov 10, 2015

I started working with an agency a couple of month ago, it was for frequent smallish jobs. I suggested a monthly account and the minimum I will list on the invoice is 5 Euros. It took a lot of discussing and 'misunderstandings' until it was clear that a 6 word job could not be charged at a word rate or the words just added to the last invoice. The PM assured me that the client is being charged a word rate, which I find hard to believe as it takes up the PM's time as well?

[Edited at 2015-
... See more
I started working with an agency a couple of month ago, it was for frequent smallish jobs. I suggested a monthly account and the minimum I will list on the invoice is 5 Euros. It took a lot of discussing and 'misunderstandings' until it was clear that a 6 word job could not be charged at a word rate or the words just added to the last invoice. The PM assured me that the client is being charged a word rate, which I find hard to believe as it takes up the PM's time as well?

[Edited at 2015-11-10 13:17 GMT]
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Peter Zhuang
Peter Zhuang  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:00
German to English
+ ...
True Nov 10, 2015

TranslateThis wrote:

Some of the biggest agencies lie about their budgets. They charge the end client $300 for a small job and pretend that they only have $20-$30 to pay the translator. I would call it crumbs... This is not just another anecdote; I have seen some of the invoices sent to me by mistake by PMs along with the job offer.

This is where many translators fail. They just accept the measly $20 because they haven't learned or don't like to negotiate, and they have no idea as to how much their work is worth.

Again, accepting lower rates in low-rate countries is one thing, but accepting low rates from 'rich countries' is just shooting ourselves in the foot.

[Edited at 2015-11-10 13:08 GMT]


Unfortunately, there will always be rogue agencies. Giving a translator a 10% cut of the fee charged to the end client is unarguably Machiavellian, and the translator has every right to be fuming mad.

It is important that translators learn how to negotiate. However, shaming colleagues who accept rates which another person consider 'peanuts' probably serves more to vent frustration and stroke egos, rather than having any educational effect.


 
Preston Decker
Preston Decker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:00
Chinese to English
RE Nov 10, 2015

TranslateThis wrote:

Preston Decker wrote:

However, I think some are making a mistake in assuming that high rates are easily available for all. Put simply, I don't think they are, especially for 'average' translators in language pairs involving non-European countries. But what's low for N. America and Europe may be high most anywhere else, and I don't understand the implied suggestion that only Western ideas of high rates should be applicable when discussing the global economy. In the city where I live half the year, the average wage is 500 USD per month. 1000 USD per month would put you in the upper middle class--are we honestly suggesting that a translator would be unwise to accept projects at .04 USD per word if it allowed them to pay a mortgage and live the life they wanted?


We are all entitled to our own points of view and you are probably right, the situation might be a little different when it comes to non-European language pairs.

Of course there is much more to life than making loads of money but since we are discussing rates, let me just ask you this: If we were talking about a full-time job with a starting salary of $3,000, would it be normal if new employees asked to be paid $1,000 instead because it's enough (it allows them to pay a mortgage and live the life they want)? I surely wouldn't call them very smart.


You're right, and I fully agree with you that many translators leave money on the table. If discussion on this topic were trending in a 'translators are not very business cagey' direction, I likely wouldn't have written my response. However, the tone of this discussion and other similar forum discussions seems to me to lean towards chastising translators who accept rates that others deem low, and this is what I object to.


 
TranslateThis
TranslateThis  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:00
Spanish to English
+ ...
Agreed Nov 10, 2015

Preston Decker wrote:

However, the tone of this discussion and other similar forum discussions seems to me to lean towards chastising translators who accept rates that others deem low, and this is what I object to.




[Edited at 2015-11-11 08:58 GMT]


 
Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:00
Serbian to English
+ ...
Don't be surprised Nov 10, 2015

Sorana_M. wrote:

Also, the domestic agency that has disappointed me has a favorable BlueBoard record. It disappointed me because it offered me the same low rates as everyone else. However, there are many comments - from foreign - not Romanian! - translators saying "it's a great/reliable/professional company". Plus, payment on time. Which contradicts some of the local opinions I've read on them and which made me be apprehensive.

I'm puzzled.

Meanwhile, I have had my suspicions confirmed, "my agency" is indeed treating translators differently, according to the country they reside in.

[Edited at 2015-11-10 15:58 GMT]



Don't be surprised - it's not difficult to find out that some agencies simply drag on to end with payment unless the translator leaves then a mini-hagiography and a 5 on the BB , so the BlueBoard is next to useless if you want to use it as a kind of notation agency for translation companies. No need to quote names, but an agency I wanted recently to know more about had a plethora of 5's on the BB, while a quick search elsewhere showed a "slightly" different picture ...


 
Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:00
Serbian to English
+ ...
Machiavellian??? Nov 11, 2015

Peter Zhuang wrote:
...
Unfortunately, there will always be rogue agencies. Giving a translator a 10% cut of the fee charged to the end client is unarguably Machiavellian, and the translator has every right to be fuming mad.

It is important that translators learn how to negotiate. However, shaming colleagues who accept rates which another person consider 'peanuts' probably serves more to vent frustration and stroke egos, rather than having any educational effect.


Could you please leave Machiavelli out of this? What you are talking about is about penny-pinching and abusing monopoly on information and other people's lack of negotiating skills - nothing to do with Machiavelli.


 
S_G_C
S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 18:00
English to Romanian
TOPIC STARTER
Difference between rates Nov 11, 2015

Daryo wrote:
Don't be surprised - it's not difficult to find out that some agencies simply drag on to end with payment unless the translator leaves then a mini-hagiography and a 5 on the BB , so the BlueBoard is next to useless if you want to use it as a kind of notation agency for translation companies. No need to quote names, but an agency I wanted recently to know more about had a plethora of 5's on the BB, while a quick search elsewhere showed a "slightly" different picture ...


Daryo, it wasn't the payment terms that interested me, this time, but the rate offered. That bugged me enough to search for information - meaning for an answer to the question "do agencies treat translators differently according to the country they - the translators - reside in". One particular agency, "my agency", surely does. It switches between units of measure and rates function to where the translator is located. And that infuriates me, because, though I don't fully agree with Bernhard's stiff position, as long as one and the same agency affords to pay translators in richer countries at least a close-to-fair rate per source word, while they pay a local translator less than the half of that close-to-fair rate, I consider that agency to be a scammer. And if one agency had the miserable nerve to adopt such a practice, I'm sure others do it, too. Despite their favorable BB records.

Thank you all for your time and the valuable input brought to the thread.

TranslateThis, I am interested in how fair rates could be achieved.


 
Peter Zhuang
Peter Zhuang  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:00
German to English
+ ...
Leave Machiavelli alone! Nov 11, 2015

Daryo wrote:

Could you please leave Machiavelli out of this? What you are talking about is about penny-pinching and abusing monopoly on information and other people's lack of negotiating skills - nothing to do with Machiavelli.


Surely, an agency which withholds a large part of the fees charged to an end client while pretending not to do so can be considered deceitful and not just penny-pinching, and thus Machiavellian.

I can't help it if you find my word choice disagreeable though.

[Edited at 2015-11-11 07:17 GMT]


 
Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:00
Serbian to English
+ ...
about sources of information Nov 11, 2015

Peter Zhuang wrote:

Daryo wrote:

Could you please leave Machiavelli out of this? What you are talking about is about penny-pinching and abusing monopoly on information and other people's lack of negotiating skills - nothing to do with Machiavelli.


Surely, an agency which withholds a large part of the fees charged to an end client while pretending not to do so can be considered deceitful and not just penny-pinching, and thus Machiavellian.

I can't help it if you find my word choice disagreeable though.

[Edited at 2015-11-11 07:17 GMT]


The way you used it is simply inaccurate - about as accurate as a hardcore capitalist calling a liberal capitalist a "Marxist".
"Machiavellian" is often used in a way that has nothing to do with Machiavelli, you don't need to contribute to that. If you take the time to read his works, you'll find that his work is about politics, so a politician or a would-be leader (of any group) could be "Machiavellian" [and that would imply a level of skills most politician simply don't have], but not some garden variety crooked middlemen.
End of digression.

Could we go back now to the main point of this thread? Which was about price discrimination and segmented markets ....


 
Liviu-Lee Roth
Liviu-Lee Roth
United States
Local time: 12:00
Romanian to English
+ ...
on a lighter side of discussion .... Nov 14, 2015

[quote]Bernhard Sulzer wrote:


English > Romanian: USD .10/hr Sample size: 814
English > German: USD .12/hr Sample size: 2477

Earning $.12/hr will bankrupt me in less than a month!))))))


I know you meant .12/word, but it looks funny !


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 21:30
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
Machiavellian simply means dodgy or crooked Nov 16, 2015

Daryo wrote:

Peter Zhuang wrote:

Daryo wrote:

Could you please leave Machiavelli out of this? What you are talking about is about penny-pinching and abusing monopoly on information and other people's lack of negotiating skills - nothing to do with Machiavelli.


Surely, an agency which withholds a large part of the fees charged to an end client while pretending not to do so can be considered deceitful and not just penny-pinching, and thus Machiavellian.

I can't help it if you find my word choice disagreeable though.

[Edited at 2015-11-11 07:17 GMT]


The way you used it is simply inaccurate - about as accurate as a hardcore capitalist calling a liberal capitalist a "Marxist".
"Machiavellian" is often used in a way that has nothing to do with Machiavelli, you don't need to contribute to that. If you take the time to read his works, you'll find that his work is about politics, so a politician or a would-be leader (of any group) could be "Machiavellian" [and that would imply a level of skills most politician simply don't have], but not some garden variety crooked middlemen.



I think the usage here is quite unexceptionable.


 
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Different rates for the domestic+foreign markets?







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