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Different rates for the domestic+foreign markets?
Thread poster: S_G_C
S_G_C
S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 04:08
English to Romanian
TOPIC STARTER
Some final thoughts Nov 9, 2015

Well, I see Bernhard brought the time factor into discussion - meaning the time needed for the market to eliminate low-rate translators or poor translators as a natural process. I have been waiting for that to happen for years. And nothing changed. It is also true that the specialty faculties in Romania keep producing translators each year. I have no idea how they could fit in, seen that the market is already overcrowded.

For me, it has been frustrating to see that some peers of min
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Well, I see Bernhard brought the time factor into discussion - meaning the time needed for the market to eliminate low-rate translators or poor translators as a natural process. I have been waiting for that to happen for years. And nothing changed. It is also true that the specialty faculties in Romania keep producing translators each year. I have no idea how they could fit in, seen that the market is already overcrowded.

For me, it has been frustrating to see that some peers of mine are considered translators, yet ask kudoz questions as simple as "concrete". For heaven's sake, a 10-year old would know what concrete means. Or posting test translations that sounded bad - it happened that I took the same tests and found their variants while searching for one word on another on Google.

I have never managed to be professional by Bernhard's criteria. And God knows I've tried, I've tried everything I could think of, there have been people yelling at me to go sweep the stairs, if I couldn't find any work in my field of expertise, yet I stubbornly trusted our profession and kept looking.

I believe I managed to be a good translator. This and that client used to call me and say "hey, remember those articles you translated for me? I'm pleased to tell you they've all been published" or "hey, that translation you have been working on, it's finally out, I put your name on the front page". And I felt satisfied.

However, with the Romanian government changing the taxation law for translators and with some personal disappointments, at the moment, I am seriously taking into consideration closing down my business.
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Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:08
English to German
+ ...
Couple thoughts on exploitation and unfair business practices Nov 9, 2015

Inga Petkelyte wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

And some people fail to grasp (I must suspect) that they are actually filling the pockets of other people by giving them the opportunity to make a huge profit by basically doing nothing.


Why don't you tell them directly? (For I am not the one.) And why should those people think about someone else's pockets if they are doing fine themselves?


Well, as for myself, I would feel exploited. For all the people that are happy with it, so be it. When the time comes and they're offered USD 0.005/word, maybe then they'll start thinking about another career.

Inga Petkelyte wrote:
And by the way, did you know that agencies in some countries charge 6 to 7 cents to their end clients? How much, do you think, can they pay the translators?
If the entire chain client+agency+translator are happy, why someone somewhere should lose their sleep over it? Anyway... I lose, a lot, because of the low rates accepted somewhere but ranting about it is just not rational.


Yes, I know. But that's not what I consider professional. If that was the only reality, or if it WILL be the only reality of the future, you won't see me accepting it. I'd be moving on.

[Edited at 2015-11-10 03:11 GMT]


 
Inga Petkelyte
Inga Petkelyte  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 02:08
Lithuanian to Portuguese
+ ...
Won't agree Nov 9, 2015

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

But that's not what I consider professional.


And this is where you are wrong. If lower rates would always mean not professional, a medical tourism, among various other examples, would not exist. But it does, It's fluorishing, actually, for some time already.
Who, on earth, would risk their health for acheaper service if it weren't professional?
Back to translations: various translators work for differential rates. How much logic is there to think that they are professional when delivering translations in a higher-rated country and get, all of a sudden, unprofessional when their client is in a cheaper country?
A range of services/goods can be listed here showcasing that a local price is just a local price and not the professionality indicator.
How often do you travel?


 
S_G_C
S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 04:08
English to Romanian
TOPIC STARTER
Curiosity Nov 9, 2015

Bernhard and the rest, if you were to change your professional direction, what would be the opportunities offered by your residence countries? Based on your age, experience, and skills?

 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:08
English to German
+ ...
Opinion Nov 9, 2015

Inga Petkelyte wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

But that's not what I consider professional.


And this is where you are wrong. If lower rates would always mean not professional, a medical tourism, among various other examples, would not exist. But it does, It's fluorishing, actually, for some time already.
Who, on earth, would risk their health for acheaper service if it weren't professional?
Back to translations: various translators work for differential rates. How much logic is there to think that they are professional when delivering translations in a higher-rated country and get, all of a sudden, unprofessional when their client is in a cheaper country?
A range of services/goods can be listed here showcasing that a local price is just a local price and not the professionality indicator.
How often do you travel?


You're entitled to your opinion. As am I. I think I made my point earlier about what I consider a professional rate for translating and why.

[Edited at 2015-11-09 17:05 GMT]


 
Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:08
English to German
I haven't read the whole thread, but Nov 9, 2015

on another thread someone just wrote that translators are the lowest paid highly educated professionals in the world.

I think it is only the translators themselves who can change that and demand a rate that enables them to live well, its hard though if people give in to ever lower rates, no minimum charge ...

And if agencies can't get the low rates then clients will have to pay more ...


 
Inga Petkelyte
Inga Petkelyte  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 02:08
Lithuanian to Portuguese
+ ...
Living well depends on the country Nov 9, 2015

I always respect argumented opinions. But sorry here, it seems that sometimes people discuss without having an idea.
If the gas for cooking, electricity, hot and cold water overall expense for 4 people is somewhat 60 euros per month, then even a 0,02 eur per word at full time ensures a relatively high standar of living. People do live well with such rates, they don't need demand anything.
I've been updating some my ads these couple past hours, there were three ads about translation s
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I always respect argumented opinions. But sorry here, it seems that sometimes people discuss without having an idea.
If the gas for cooking, electricity, hot and cold water overall expense for 4 people is somewhat 60 euros per month, then even a 0,02 eur per word at full time ensures a relatively high standar of living. People do live well with such rates, they don't need demand anything.
I've been updating some my ads these couple past hours, there were three ads about translation services with indicated prices in one site: one had indicated 3,77 euros per page (an individual translator), another - 6 euros per page, aprox. 300 words (agency) and the highest was 11,68 euros per page (agency).
So if a charge of 6 euros per page enables payment for the office rent, the office expenses and several persons of the staff, then maybe those low rates are not so low there locally.
By this, I am not aiming to diminish opinions of anyone, only invite to see a little bit beyond your own reality bubbles and broaden up those opinions.
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TranslateThis
TranslateThis  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:08
Spanish to English
+ ...
Opinions, attitudes, goals and negotiation skills Nov 9, 2015

Inga Petkelyte wrote:
I only invite to see a little bit beyond your own reality bubbles and broaden up those opinions.


This isn't to Inga, just a general response.

While I don't think there is a whole lot we can do in terms of the difference between certain domestic (in this case: low rates) and foreign rates (in this case: high rates), I would hope that all these translators who charge every client the same low rate would stop for a moment and think what they are doing to our profession.

Charging foreign clients from rich countries your low local rates is is the biggest mistake AFAIK.
If you are happy with your income and don't want to make more money that's fine, but in that case it would help a lot if you would just stick with your local agencies (local rates=local agencies).

If, on the other hand, you are ready to charge what your work is really worth on the global market, please don't be discouraged. It is not easy to negotiate higher rates, especially not at first. You will hear "no" most of the time, so be prepared. The important thing is that you keep negotiating and maintain the market rates (not your low local rates). Your negotiation skills will improve over time if you keep at it. Your goal is to systematically obtain higher rates from new clients (from richer countries) and depending on your circumstances (field of expertise, language pair, how many hours per week you work, how steady your workflow is, etc.), once you have shifted completely from your local market to the global market, you should be able to make USD 5,000 or more per month.

This is not a fantasy. Many translators from Eastern Europe and Latin America have been able to do this (and some of them make much more), so if you are good at what you do, why wouldn't it be possible in your case? What do you have to lose? Why not try and see for yourself?

Some will say that it is too much and that you don't need that much. Well, you can always donate to your favorite charity or simply work part-time and have more time for yourself and your family. It's well worth trying and I bet you won't regret it!


 
S_G_C
S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 04:08
English to Romanian
TOPIC STARTER
What I've tried Nov 9, 2015

TranslateThis wrote:
Why not try and see for yourself?


I believe I did. It took me around 10 days to send about 3,000 (yup, three thousand) e-mails or so to an obviously long list of international clients. proz's database was highly useful in this regard. And that's all I did during those 10 days. The most I got from this exhausting treasure hunt was the 0.05 USD/source word I mentioned previously. And the agency who offered me that chance is ranked as one of the most reliable on the market - and I can confirm I had no trouble with them whatsoever, yes, I would recommend them to other translators.

Nowadays, if I deem an ad suitable for me, I don't even bother mentioning my rates, unless the ad specifically asks for them. I just wait to see what the agency comes up with.


 
Marius Reika
Marius Reika  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:38
English to Lithuanian
... Nov 10, 2015

TranslateThis wrote:
Charging foreign clients from rich countries your low local rates is is the biggest mistake AFAIK.


Couldn't agree more.

However, I doubt there are many translators who do this, especially the ones who come to proz to look for foreign clients - getting a better rate is the basic idea. Why come here and charge local rates?

Anyway, some people still fail to understand that some rates here on proz that seem low comparing to rich countries' rates, are way better than the local rates of a poorer country.

Finally, exploitation is one thing, however, repeatedly failing to understand how some people can work for 0.05 USD or similar is bewildering. Some people work 18 hours for 3 USD, (no, not 3 USD per hour...)
When you take such situations in perspective, getting 0.05 USD/word for such people is like hitting a jackpot.


 
Preston Decker
Preston Decker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:08
Chinese to English
Once again Nov 10, 2015

I still don't understand the outrage concerning translators charging low rates. A couple of thoughts:

1. We owe very little to the 'translation community' in terms of the rates we charge. We do, however, owe it to ourselves and to our families to ensure that we make enough money to pay the bills. If you're able to live the life you want based on .03 USD per word, and you feel comfortable with the quality of your translations, then all the more power to you.

Unfortunatel
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I still don't understand the outrage concerning translators charging low rates. A couple of thoughts:

1. We owe very little to the 'translation community' in terms of the rates we charge. We do, however, owe it to ourselves and to our families to ensure that we make enough money to pay the bills. If you're able to live the life you want based on .03 USD per word, and you feel comfortable with the quality of your translations, then all the more power to you.

Unfortunately I do not feel comfortable at .01 USD per word, and so I charge much more. But I sure as heck don't take into account the well-being of other translators when I determine the structure of my business, because this would drive me crazy. You can make just as convincing an argument that it would help other translators more if I started making mistakes in my translations--this would give less skilled translators a chance to claim that their work is worth just as much as mine. Or perhaps I should accept less work to make more available for everyone else?

There is much that we can do to help one another. Supporting each other in the forums, offering aid to up and coming translators, sharing connections, etc. are all great ways of accomplishing this. Determining your rates based upon the idea of helping the translation community is not one of them.

2. I'm all for higher rates, and I think almost everyone on here is as well if they can get them. Who doesn't like being paid more?

However, I think some are making a mistake in assuming that high rates are easily available for all. Put simply, I don't think they are, especially for 'average' translators in language pairs involving non-European countries. But what's low for N. America and Europe may be high most anywhere else, and I don't understand the implied suggestion that only Western ideas of high rates should be applicable when discussing the global economy. In the city where I live half the year, the average wage is 500 USD per month. 1000 USD per month would put you in the upper middle class--are we honestly suggesting that a translator would be unwise to accept projects at .04 USD per word if it allowed them to pay a mortgage and live the life they wanted?

This whole argument needs to be re-framed. The questions that should be asked are: 'Do you want to make more money? If so, are you taking the steps necessary to make more?"
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TranslateThis
TranslateThis  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:08
Spanish to English
+ ...
We owe it to ourselves to know how much our work is worth. Nov 10, 2015

Preston Decker wrote:

I still don't understand the outrage concerning translators charging low rates. A couple of thoughts:


I am not outraged. I understand that if you are fast and have a steady stream of work it is possible to make good money even when you charge 0.05 per word.

I just don't understand why some people accept low rates from US and Western European agencies and/or direct clients when they could be earning much more. Obtaining higher rates requires some effort but it is not impossible if you are a true specialist able to deliver quality translations. In the long run it will ruin the global market for all of us, it will just be a downward spiral.

BTW, I have lived in Eastern Europe and in the US and I have now moved to South America. My rates have remained the same. It hasn't crossed my mind to charge less just because I now live on a different continent and the min. monthly salary here is below $400.00. I will keep charging my US and Western European clients US and Western European rates.

Preston Decker wrote:
We owe very little to the 'translation community'


Well, for some it may be about the 'translation community'. But to me it's about common sense. If my car is worth $10,000 I don't understand why I should rush and sell it for $2,000 unless I really have my back against the wall, but even then there are probably other options. We owe it to ourselves to know how much our work is worth. And to charge accordingly.

[Edited at 2015-11-10 06:12 GMT]


 
TranslateThis
TranslateThis  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:08
Spanish to English
+ ...
It might be different for non-European language pairs Nov 10, 2015

Preston Decker wrote:

However, I think some are making a mistake in assuming that high rates are easily available for all. Put simply, I don't think they are, especially for 'average' translators in language pairs involving non-European countries. But what's low for N. America and Europe may be high most anywhere else, and I don't understand the implied suggestion that only Western ideas of high rates should be applicable when discussing the global economy. In the city where I live half the year, the average wage is 500 USD per month. 1000 USD per month would put you in the upper middle class--are we honestly suggesting that a translator would be unwise to accept projects at .04 USD per word if it allowed them to pay a mortgage and live the life they wanted?


We are all entitled to our own points of view and you are probably right, the situation might be a little different when it comes to non-European language pairs.

Of course there is much more to life than making loads of money but since we are discussing rates, let me just ask you this: If we were talking about a full-time job with a starting salary of $3,000, would it be normal if new employees asked to be paid $1,000 instead because it's enough (it allows them to pay a mortgage and live the life they want)? I surely wouldn't call them very smart.


 
TranslateThis
TranslateThis  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:08
Spanish to English
+ ...
Well, it took me years Nov 10, 2015

Sorana_M. wrote:

It took me around 10 days to send about 3,000 (yup, three thousand) e-mails


Are you saying you contacted 3,000 US and Western European agencies and the highest rate the agencies were willing to pay was $0.05? Ouch. Maybe it has already gotten a lot worse than I thought! Or maybe these were not the right kind of agencies.

Also, ten days isn't a long time. If you expect quick results you will be disappointed. Some agencies might contact you after several months or years. The recruitment process itself may take 1-2 months. I admit, I was lucky to have a few good clients when I started so I wasn't in a hurry to find new ones, but building a solid client base usually requires a lot of effort and time.

Contacting hundreds or thousands of agencies might sound like a good idea, but you will probably achieve better results if you contact fewer, carefully selected agencies.

[Edited at 2015-11-10 06:21 GMT]


 
S_G_C
S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 04:08
English to Romanian
TOPIC STARTER
Recruiment Nov 10, 2015

TranslateThis wrote:

Are you saying you contacted 3,000 US and Western European agencies and the highest rate the agencies were willing to pay was $0.05? Ouch. Maybe it has already gotten a lot worse than I thought! Or maybe these were not the right kind of agencies.

Also, ten days isn't a long time. If you expect quick results you will be disappointed. Some agencies might contact you after several months or years. The recruitment process itself may take 1-2 months. I admit, I was lucky to have a few good clients when I started so I wasn't in a hurry to find new ones, but building a solid client base usually requires a lot of effort and time.

Contacting hundreds or thousands of agencies might sound like a good idea, but you will probably achieve better results if you contact fewer, carefully selected agencies.

[Edited at 2015-11-10 06:21 GMT]


Exactly. Western European, US, Canadian, Australian, all that I could find, on proz and other sites. I searched for referrals and used those as well, even if they pointed to agencies located in such countries as Egypt, Israel, Poland, Slovenia, Slovakia, Latvia and so on. Maybe 30 of them answered back, and maybe half of that number actually sent me a test. I kept them on file.

I admit I expected quick results. I know the recruitment process takes a while, as I've passed through it myself.

However, for many of my attempts, it's been two years since I made them and still no reply. Two or three days ago, I found another 20 to 30 potential clients and e-mailed them. No reply so far.

But something that made me smile did happen. Towards the end of October, an agency in Thailand contacted me for an urgent job. I didn't even remember e-mailing them. I gave them a flat rate and I was surprised to see that they accepted it on the spot. I did the job, yet had major reserves concerning the payment, as we didn't sign any contract or collaboration terms. Besides, my PayPal address is temporarily disabled. Yet, they sent me the money within days.



[Edited at 2015-11-10 09:34 GMT]


 
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Different rates for the domestic+foreign markets?







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