| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Thousands of translators with years of experience working for .01 a word Thread poster: Jeff Whittaker
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| This may be true, but then this will not apply to translator or tailor only. | Jul 4, 2015 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge "...An example of this bias would be of a tailor selling clothes. Because the tailor has made a dress, he is intimately familiar with the quality of the item in craftsmanship, features, and fabric quality. When pricing a dress for sale, however, he needs to take the point of view of an uninformed customer- someone might be walking into the store with no previous knowledge of the owner, dressmaker, or how difficult or easy the item is to make. The tailor, as hard as he might try to take the point of view of the customer, cannot completely separate himself from the knowledge he has of the quality of this dress, and therefore will assume a customer will value and pay much more for the dress than is actually true..." [Edited at 2015-07-04 16:32 GMT]
Let’s stride out and go down a commercial street. Say I need a pair of socks. With a sword of Damocles hanging over my head (i.e. the deadline), I have no time to spare, so the first shop I see, there I am asking Tailor A how much his socks cost. Tailor does not bother to reply (he’s listening to his favourite music) and I manage to see the price printed on the item. It is USD 0.5 a pack of six pairs. I am suspicious and decide this is not the right price, for:
- Either Tailor A is not paying taxes and actually smuggles the items into the country
- Or the quality does not meet a standard (any standard).
- Or both.
I walk out, go to a supermarket CorreFu and find socks at USD 3 a pair. It’s still cheap, but I decide to buy the product as it has the name of the manufacturer printed on it (which I clearly understand), states what the fabric is made of, and I know if I find a problem with the product, CorreFu staff will fix it or will reimburse me, etc. Tailor A would not care, he is busy listening to his music.
The question is, would you buy socks that cost USD 0.5 six pairs (won’t it already have a hole in it)?
Would you buy a car that costs USD 200 (won’t it give too many problems and cost another USD 2000 to fix)?
Would you buy a bottle of wine that cost USD 0.2 (won’t it be a mixture of a powder and water)?
I bet you wouldn’t. Some do but then they learn the lesson and stop doing it. I've been there. Once I bought a pair of shoes at a beach in Canary Islands. Tailor A sold me the shoes at a ridiculously cheap price. The shoes looked good. I used them for two or three days to walk along the beach. One day I noticed my feet were itching. I had to go to a doctor who told me it was for the lack of ventilation. I binned the shoes. Obviously, I now know where to buy my shoes. It is nowhere near Mr Tailor A's shop.
[Edited at 2015-07-04 20:34 GMT]
| | | | | But what if you only need them once for kicking around on an off day? | Jul 4, 2015 |
Merab Dekano wrote: Jeff Whittaker wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge "...An example of this bias would be of a tailor selling clothes. Because the tailor has made a dress, he is intimately familiar with the quality of the item in craftsmanship, features, and fabric quality. When pricing a dress for sale, however, he needs to take the point of view of an uninformed customer- someone might be walking into the store with no previous knowledge of the owner, dressmaker, or how difficult or easy the item is to make. The tailor, as hard as he might try to take the point of view of the customer, cannot completely separate himself from the knowledge he has of the quality of this dress, and therefore will assume a customer will value and pay much more for the dress than is actually true..." [Edited at 2015-07-04 16:32 GMT] Let’s stride out and go down a commercial street. Say I need a pair of socks. With a sword of Damocles hanging over my head (i.e. the deadline), I have no time to spare, so the first shop I see, there I am asking Mr XingXiangChu how much his socks cost. Mr XingXiangChu does not bother to reply (he’s listening to his favourite music) and I manage to see the price printed on the item. It is USD 0.5 a pack of six pairs. I am suspicious and decide this is not the right price, for: - Either Mr XingXiangChu is not paying taxes and actually smuggles the items into the country - Or the quality does not meet a standard (any standard). - Or both. I walk out, go to a supermarket CorreFu and find socks at USD 3 a pair. It’s still cheap, but I decide to buy the product as it has the name of the manufacturer printed on it (which I clearly understand), states what the fabric is made of, and I know if I find a problem with the product, CorreFu staff will fix it or will reimburse me, etc. Mr XingXiangChu would not care, he is busy listening to his music. The question is, would you buy socks that cost USD 0.5 six pairs (won’t it already have a hole in it)? Would you buy a car that costs USD 200 (won’t it give too many problems and cost another USD 2000 to fix)? Would you buy a bottle of wine that cost USD 0.2 (won’t it be a mixture of a powder and water)? I bet you wouldn’t. Some do but then they learn the lesson and stop doing it. I've been there. Once I bought a pair of shoes at a beach in Canary Islands. Mr XingXiangChu sold me the shoes at a ridiculously cheap price. The shoes looked good. I used them for two or three days to walk along the beach. One day I noticed my feet were itching. I had to go to a doctor who told me it was for the lack of ventilation. I binned the shoes. Obviously, I now know where to buy my shoes. It is nowhere near Mr XingXiangChu's shop. [Edited at 2015-07-04 17:45 GMT]
When I was still in my bachelor days I would sometimes fall behind on laundry. Not too much of a problem for blue jeans, but a major stinker for socks. Luckily, right below my apartment was a flea market where I could buy cheaply made, poor quality socks at 5RMB for a bundle of three socks. At the time this put each pair of socks at about .3 USD. Absolutely loved that deal at the time.
Would I have bought those socks if I were going to a business meeting? Of course not.
The parallels with the translation market are pretty obvious--some people do not need a great translation, just one they can use once and be done with. What I think is funny is that on a different thread on the forum some translators are complaining about the number of phone calls they receive from private individuals looking for birth certificate translations at low prices. It seems to me (in fact this was pointed out on that thread as well) that our 3 bundle sock translators are just the ticket for these people--after all it's pretty difficult to mess up a certificate translation.
Serious businesses are not going to be swept up in buying these 5 dollar translations.
As an aside, I'm sure you didn't mean anything by this, but you should probably change the name you used as an example to something a bit less offensive, maybe just Tailor A?
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Preston Decker wrote:
When I was still in my bachelor days I would sometimes fall behind on laundry. Not too much of a problem for blue jeans, but a major stinker for socks. Luckily, right below my apartment was a flea market where I could buy cheaply made, poor quality socks at 5RMB for a bundle of three socks. At the time this put each pair of socks at about .3 USD. Absolutely loved that deal at the time.
Would I have bought those socks if I were going to a business meeting? Of course not.
The parallels with the translation market are pretty obvious--some people do not need a great translation, just one they can use once and be done with. What I think is funny is that on a different thread on the forum some translators are complaining about the number of phone calls they receive from private individuals looking for birth certificate translations at low prices. It seems to me (in fact this was pointed out on that thread as well) that our 3 bundle sock translators are just the ticket for these people--after all it's pretty difficult to mess up a certificate translation.
Serious businesses are not going to be swept up in buying these 5 dollar translations.
As an aside, I'm sure you didn't mean anything by this, but you should probably change the name you used as an example to something a bit less offensive, maybe just Tailor A?
Seconded. And no, I did not mean anything by it. Just replaced the name with "Tailor A".
I agree, Preston. It should not bother us. We are here to stay for life and render professional work, take pride and professional satisfaction. Make a decent living. If someone decides to earn 5 bucks on the side here and there translating, so be it. I too sing in the shower, but I'm yet to be invited to perform at the "MET". However, I do aspire to be a "MET-level" translator. Otherwise, I would have chosen some other profession.
[Edited at 2015-07-04 20:54 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:08
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| I'm having trouble picturing this | Jul 5, 2015 |
Merab Dekano wrote:
Let’s stride out and go down a commercial street....with a sword of Damocles hanging over my head (i.e. the deadline), I have no time to spare, so the first shop I see, there I am asking Tailor A how much his socks cost.
I'm having trouble picturing someone walking along a street, with a sword of Damocles hanging over her/his head, trying to meet a deadline for buying a pair of socks.
Never have socks been so life-changing.
[Edited at 2015-07-05 09:21 GMT]
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| Depends on your partner: | Jul 5, 2015 |
Tom in London wrote:
Never have socks been so life-changing.
They can, when you aren´t able to change them for days because of spending day and night on 1-cent-jobs.
| | | | | This is not the point | Jul 5, 2015 |
Tom in London wrote: Merab Dekano wrote:
Let’s stride out and go down a commercial street....with a sword of Damocles hanging over my head (i.e. the deadline), I have no time to spare, so the first shop I see, there I am asking Tailor A how much his socks cost. I'm having trouble picturing someone walking along a street, with a sword of Damocles hanging over her/his head, trying to meet a deadline for buying a pair of socks. Never have socks been so life-changing. [Edited at 2015-07-05 09:21 GMT]
Neither the deadline nor the socks themselves should be deemed to be the pint, Tom.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 06:38
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Wrong reasoning | Jul 5, 2015 |
Merab Dekano wrote:
Let’s stride out and go down a commercial street. Say I need a pair of socks. With a sword of Damocles hanging over my head (i.e. the deadline), I have no time to spare, so the first shop I see, there I am asking Tailor A how much his socks cost. Tailor does not bother to reply (he’s listening to his favourite music) and I manage to see the price printed on the item. It is USD 0.5 a pack of six pairs. I am suspicious and decide this is not the right price, for:
- Either Tailor A is not paying taxes and actually smuggles the items into the country
- Or the quality does not meet a standard (any standard).
- Or both.
....
.....
I walk out, go to a supermarket CorreFu and find socks at USD 3 a pair.
The very fact that Talior A or his earlier avataar Mr XingXiangChu has set up a shop within walking distance of a supermarker like CorreFu indicates that Taior A is doing a roaring business with his half a dollar socks.
Very often, it has been my experience, that the very same socks available with the tailor in this example, is also available in larger supermarkets like CorreFu, only now with a fancy brand name attached to it, for both are supplied by the same supplier! (Read: a fancy native translator providing just as shoddy a translation as the so called bottom feeder charging subsistence level rates.)
As Preston has pointed out, there is a market for Talior A as well as for CorreFu, or in our parlance, the 1 center and the 50 center translator.
Many translation requirements don't demand quality, they are done for other reasons - for example, to meet legal stipulations, such as a product label or leaflet needing to be printed in a few mandatory number of languages. The law doesn't say that the translation should be of quality, and manufacturers just obey the letter of the law. Surely they wouldn't go for the 50 center. Anyone who has bought Chinese electronic goods flooding the markets around the world will know this or they can find out by looking up the manuals that come with these. These products are aimed at the price-conscious and barely fulfill their stated functions. They are to be bought on good faith and may or may not work. They are unlikely to be accompanied by great translations.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 09:08
Chinese to English
| Cheap translation is not translation | Jul 5, 2015 |
Preston Decker wrote:
The parallels with the translation market are pretty obvious--some people do not need a great translation, just one they can use once and be done with...it's pretty difficult to mess up a certificate translation.
This is the theory that I think many, many people apply. And it's a very tempting one, both intellectually and practically. Unfortunately, I just don't believe it.
Have you ever seen a birth certificate done done by a 1 cent translator? I have. I tell you, hard though it may be, those froods can mess it up. Certificates don't have to convey much, but can you, an English reader, tell what a "relevant department leader doctor" is? How is this person related to the birth? Is that her signature? And what does "name" mean? It's next to "family name", so your best guess would be that it means forename, but it would be nice to be sure, wouldn't it? It would be nice if the translator could have actually translated the damn certificate, instead of throwing down some Chinglish for ten yuan and calling it a day...
This theory that there is a real category of "cheap translation" is, I think, a fallacy. By any understanding of the term "translation", a translation has to get the meaning basically right. But cheap translation doesn't do that. Cheap translators make deep, fundamental errors in comprehension of the source text.
This is why I support any effort to educate clients and to warn new translators: if you work for 1 cent, 2 cents, 3 cents, 4 cents, you're sending a message that you're not really a translator. You can't really fulfill the most basic criterion for translating a text.
And I say that advisedly, as someone who has worked for all those rates, because I didn't know any better at the time.
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Neil Ashby
Spain
Local time: 03:08
Spanish to English
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| Possibly some slight exaggerations on their CVs! | Jul 5, 2015 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
Some can be dismissed, but some of them even have advanced language and communication degrees.
There's probably plenty of 'service' providers on these sites who are lying about their credentials. Clients looking for the cheapest option aren't likely to check.
| | | | | Another possibility | Jul 5, 2015 |
Is that there are no translations at all.
And that what we see is just something to attract people to the website.
It could be a marketing trick, but it could also be scams.
Some of these 'translators" may in fact be fake profiles. They do not seem integrated in one community or another, no website, no blog, no other personal details beside a LI profile (easy to create). But I have to admit that I saw too much fake profiles these days on another big website I a... See more Is that there are no translations at all.
And that what we see is just something to attract people to the website.
It could be a marketing trick, but it could also be scams.
Some of these 'translators" may in fact be fake profiles. They do not seem integrated in one community or another, no website, no blog, no other personal details beside a LI profile (easy to create). But I have to admit that I saw too much fake profiles these days on another big website I am contributing to. One of them was a 'nun' promising an heritage to people (please give your bank details). Then there was a period of 'severely ill people'. Once the 100 series or so of 100 'nuns' and 'ill people' spamming thousands of members detected, the scammers became plus subtle and promised 'loans' up to $ 1,000,000 (very credible. In some cultures, big is beautiful). I would not be surprised if a fake translation industry exists. The scam could be of the same type as the one Enrique describes in another thread: client disappearing, translator disappearing and in the middle another company, maybe even a honest one. And of course nobody in this chain has the faintest idea about the real cost of a translation or how our sector works, but $5/hundred words seems to be heavenly well-paid.
[Edited at 2015-07-05 14:22 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | DLyons
Ireland
Local time: 02:08
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Yes, blatantly true! | Jul 5, 2015 |
Neil Ashby wrote:
There's probably plenty of 'service' providers on these sites who are lying about their credentials. Clients looking for the cheapest option aren't likely to check.
And ones who seem competent neither in their source not target language. Mostly they quickly move on to other things, but the next tide brings in a new flux of bottom feeders. But some clients need no more than gisting and there's nothing wrong with that (although there is with lying).
| | | | | Cannot call it translation then | Jul 5, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Many translation requirements don't demand quality, they are done for other reasons - for example, to meet legal stipulations, such as a product label or leaflet needing to be printed in a few mandatory number of languages.
If I make socks myself, without being a tailor, from an old piece of fabric, I bet you cannot call them exactly socks. It will cover my feet (hopefully), but this will be something else, not socks.
If I open my mouth at a party and start singing Don Carlo’s aria, technically I will be singing, but in reality people will take pity at me. In other words, you cannot call singing what that off-key, off-diction kind of screaming.
The same goes for translation. It requires training, a lot of it. But you already have to have languages and deep love for them. You have to be able to produce sort of writing in your own language that is pleasant to read. Are you saying that if you have all that (and a lot more), you will charge 0.01 per word? Because there is "market" for it? Go and volunteer, folks will be grateful, at least.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 06:38
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | No, that is not what I am saying | Jul 6, 2015 |
Merab Dekano wrote:
The same goes for translation. It requires training, a lot of it. But you already have to have languages and deep love for them. You have to be able to produce sort of writing in your own language that is pleasant to read. Are you saying that if you have all that (and a lot more), you will charge 0.01 per word? Because there is "market" for it? Go and volunteer, folks will be grateful, at least.
What I am saying is that there are translators and translators. Some you have described - the ones with love for their language, training, writing abilities, those who don't charge 0.01 per word - and then, there are translators who have none of these, and yet fulfill legitimate translation requirements - legitimate because these requirements exist in the real world out there, and we get glimpses of them in the job board here. These don't need fancy translators, not even "translation" strictly speaking. They fulfill other needs, such as the ones I had mentioned earlier - legal requirements that require certain texts to be translated into n number of languages, here no one checks the translations or even reads them, but the stipulation never the less has to be fulfilled. The translators of the second category fulfill these requirements.
You might not call them translators, or what they do translations, but that does not wipe them off the face of this earth.
Often, when we talk translation, we think only of the high-end professionals, but a whole ecosystem of other types also exists, and these types are so remote from us in every respect that we don't even recognize them, and when we encounter them on rare occasions as on the job board here, we get a culture shock.
Instead of the tailor and CarreFour comparison, a better comparison would be between Rolex watches costing thousands of dollars and the cheap dollar watches that we buy for our children. Both tell time, one may be less accurately, but tell they do nevertheless. What Rolex watches have which the other watches do not have is snob value. Many people would happily make do without the snob value, and even the functionality - think of the cheap plastic watches we buy for very small children who haven't yet learnt to tell time, but demand watches as playthings. Would you buy them Rolex watches or the cheap dollar watches?
[Edited at 2015-07-06 06:46 GMT]
| | | | | I'm still having hard time to agree with you | Jul 6, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
These don't need fancy translators, not even "translation" strictly speaking. They fulfill other needs, such as the ones I had mentioned earlier - legal requirements that require certain texts to be translated into n number of languages, here no one checks the translations or even reads them, but the stipulation never the less has to be fulfilled. The translators of the second category fulfill these requirements.
If so, machine translation will do, no need to bother paying 0.01 either.
Instead of the tailor and CarreFour comparison, a better comparison would be between Rolex watches costing thousands of dollars and the cheap dollar watches that we buy for our children. Both tell time, one may be less accurately, but tell they do nevertheless. What Rolex watches have which the other watches do not have is snob value. Many people would happily make do without the snob value, and even the functionality - think of the cheap plastic watches we buy for very small children who haven't yet learnt to tell time, but demand watches as playthings. Would you buy them Rolex watches or the cheap dollar watches?
[Edited at 2015-07-06 06:46 GMT]
Rolex watches are luxury-related items. Translation, however, is a practical need, not a luxury.
The only point I am making is that if you fit a pair of wings to an aubergine, it will not become an eagle. In fact, not even a sparrow. The fact that you’ve projected it upwards does not mean it took flight.
| | | | | A matter of perception | Jul 6, 2015 |
Merab Dekano wrote:
If so, machine translation will do, no need to bother paying 0.01 either.
What if the client perceives a greater difference between MT and a 0.01/w translator than between 0.01/w and 0.15/w translators? These 0.01/w translators might be desperate, unqualified and unaware of the intricacies of style and spelling (as are often the clients themselves); however, their work will probably still turn out to be much more comprehensible to human readers than the output of your typical MT engine.
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