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Post-editing is for chumps
Thread poster: Michael Beijer
Michele Fauble
Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:43
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Norwegian to English
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HAMPsTeR Jun 25, 2015

Jeff Whittaker wrote:

First of all, we should categorically refuse to adopt the term "post editing" because the machine does not translate anything,


And if machines ever do become capable of actually translating, they should also be able to do the "post-editing".


SandraV
 
Paris Brooker
Paris Brooker  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:43
Turkish to English
It's a shame... Jun 25, 2015

I had done a few decent projects for this agency, at an OK rate, but it now seems their status quo is to google translate a text, send it to a "Post-editor" for "light post-editing" and hope for the best.

 
Michael Marcoux
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PEMT isn't even good for closely-related languages Jun 25, 2015

A while back, when I was still (very) new to the profession, I took on such an assignment - from Norwegian to English. The problem was that I ended up having to edit every sentence - even if only a little bit - and consequently wasted as much time as I would have needed to just translate the thing by scratch.

If the numbers worked, I wouldn't care - I'd take on PEMT. But they don't work. And they probably never will.


 
Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
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English to German
I have never considered taking such a project Jun 26, 2015

But as everyone tries to extract what they can from technology, the potential shouldn't be ignored - but not at the translator's expense, and of course not with a google translation.

I can imagine that some texts, together with a good TM could throw up text that is worth it?

[Edited at 2015-06-26 04:52 GMT]


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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PEMT is for the low-quality, low-difficulty segment Jun 26, 2015

Fiona Peterson wrote:
If you cater to a higher quality segment, I suggest wasting less precious time and energy on such offers, composing a short reply and moving on, casting said offer into the waste basket. I think it's good practice to educate clients. And I understand when frustration gets the upper hand.

Exactly. PEMT is for the low-difficulty and even low-quality segment.

Twenty years ago there were a pile of localisation projects around that required very little experience or knowledge. That segment of the market, which used to give some work to part of the translation community, virtually disappeared with the credit crunch. Now it is returning, but in the form of PEMT.

That kind of work that can be translated by a machine is clearly not the line of business of a quality-conscious, specialised translator, so when a job proposal comes around, it is best to politely refuse and move on.


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
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Exactly Jun 26, 2015

Michele Fauble wrote:
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
First of all, we should categorically refuse to adopt the term "post editing" because the machine does not translate anything,

And if machines ever do become capable of actually translating, they should also be able to do the "post-editing".

I agree. I will believe that machine translation is a viable technology when I see a piece of software post-edit another software's translations.


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
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In memoriam
Would the alternative be pre-editing? Jun 26, 2015

The very expression "post-editing" is ridiculous. All editing is "post". You can't edit a document before it's been written. What would pre-editing consist of, then?

[Edited at 2015-06-26 06:38 GMT]


 
Irene McClure
Irene McClure
Local time: 09:43
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Pre-editing ... Jun 26, 2015

Sounds mad doesn't it Jenny? And yet ... pre-editing is indeed part of the MT process (when done correctly). I'm not talking about Google translate and how some agencies currently use it, but much more sophisticated, tailor-made machine translation systems which involve linguists at either end of the chain.

Pre-translation is carried out by linguists who are familiar with the source language and involves simplifying the source text and removing any known issues which cause problems
... See more
Sounds mad doesn't it Jenny? And yet ... pre-editing is indeed part of the MT process (when done correctly). I'm not talking about Google translate and how some agencies currently use it, but much more sophisticated, tailor-made machine translation systems which involve linguists at either end of the chain.

Pre-translation is carried out by linguists who are familiar with the source language and involves simplifying the source text and removing any known issues which cause problems for the machine (spelling mistakes, overly complex grammar structures, inconsistent terminology etc.) before the text is fed into the machine. Post-editing (as we know) involves translators who work both with the source and the target to correct the output and ensure it reads fluently.

I don't use MT because I think what's available to the public isn't up to much, but there are some more sophisticated experiments going on which involve linguists throughout the process. I don't think we should write it off - there may actually be interesting possibilities for translators using this in the future to their advantage (rather than simply agencies wanting to get a decent translation for a fraction of the cost).

I studied MT, including pre- and post-editing, as part of the translation programme at Portsmouth and there is loads of interesting stuff out there about how MT can be made more and more reliable, by involving human translators rather than by replacing them - an opportunity for us, rather than a threat ...

Here are a couple of non-academic articles which explain it better than I can ...

http://www.unige.ch/traduction-interpretation/faculte/organisation/departements/dtim/recherches/ta_en.html

http://info.moravia.com/blog/machine-translation-pre-editing-to-boost-output-quality

None of this means I am taking the side of the bottom-feeders who are the subject of this thread - sticking texts in Google translate and asking for 'light' human editing at the end for a couple of cents per word is, of course, asking for trouble and to be avoided at all costs ...
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Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
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In memoriam
Aha! Jun 26, 2015

Thanks for the information, Irene. Actually, I was being sarky about post-pre-translation, I fear ☺.
Perhaps it's the acronym PEMT (post-editing machine translation) that's in the wrong order. Shouldn't it be PMTE - post-machine-translation editing?


 
Charlie Bavington
Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
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French to English
Dangerous ground Jun 26, 2015

Jenny Forbes wrote:

PMTE - post-machine-translation editing?


It's close enough to PMT as it is, both as an abbreviation and in the responses it provokes - witness the first post.

By happy coincidence : http://cbavington.com/blog/2015/06/26/pemt-haze/


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
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French to English
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In memoriam
Stress Jun 26, 2015

Charlie Bavington wrote:

Jenny Forbes wrote:

PMTE - post-machine-translation editing?


It's close enough to PMT as it is, both as an abbreviation and in the responses it provokes - witness the first post.

By happy coincidence : http://cbavington.com/blog/2015/06/26/pemt-haze/



That occurred to me too, Charlie. Either PMT (pre-menstrual tension) or PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder) both of which probably induce the same symptoms as PEMT.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
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Italian to English
Wow Jun 26, 2015

Irene McClure wrote:

Pre-translation is carried out by linguists who are familiar with the source language and involves simplifying the source text and removing any known issues which cause problems for the machine


WOw - so the original text is changed so that it can be handled by the machine? That sounds completely unacceptable.


 
Samuel Murray
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English to Afrikaans
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Finally a voice of reason Jun 26, 2015

Charlie Bavington wrote:
By happy coincidence : http://cbavington.com/blog/2015/06/26/pemt-haze/


I agree with everything (rare with blog posts).


 
Irene McClure
Irene McClure
Local time: 09:43
French to English
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Normally unacceptable but ... Jun 26, 2015

Of course, in our 'normal' line of work, changing the source text would be unacceptable, but that's not what I was talking about.

I was talking about MT as a very specific type of process which has been experimented with by huge international organisations - tailor-made MT systems designed on the basis of huge corpora. In these experiments, the authors of the original documents ajust their writing style to comply with defined internal writing rules, using 'controlled' language. In t
... See more
Of course, in our 'normal' line of work, changing the source text would be unacceptable, but that's not what I was talking about.

I was talking about MT as a very specific type of process which has been experimented with by huge international organisations - tailor-made MT systems designed on the basis of huge corpora. In these experiments, the authors of the original documents ajust their writing style to comply with defined internal writing rules, using 'controlled' language. In these cases the pre-editing process is just one element of a must bigger, comprehensive approach to translating huge numbers of words of, usually, technical documents.

There's loads of research out there - if you're interested (you never know!), John Hutchins has published screeds on the history of MT and its applications. Here's just one link from his website: http://www.hutchinsweb.me.uk/CUHK-2006.pdf

It's not for everyone, I know, but it's certainly a far cry from cheap agencies churning documents indiscriminately through Google and exploiting translators.
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Michael Beijer
Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
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Dutch to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Someone's gotta do it (just not me) Jun 26, 2015

Samuel Murray wrote:

Charlie Bavington wrote:
By happy coincidence : http://cbavington.com/blog/2015/06/26/pemt-haze/


I agree with everything (rare with blog posts).


Great post, and I also agree with Charlie.

Incidentally, I actually already do perform (a form of) "post-editing", albeit not for €0.03 for some dumb project manager. I do it in my own CAT tool (CafeTran), which has all manner of clever tricks involving MT, fuzzy match "patching" using MT, auto-assembly, etc.

Michael


 
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Post-editing is for chumps







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