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Is a residence certificate needed in EU if I have a valid EU VAT number?
Thread poster: Andrei Albu
Andrei Albu
Andrei Albu
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No Dec 18, 2014

Thomas Frost wrote:

Can you find a model for such a certificate and edit it to say what they want?

If customers are so difficult, that could be a way out. So long as it only states true facts, I wouldn't worry too much.


No, they already sent me a sample signed and stamped by the Romanian tax authorities. I cannot do it myself.


 
Andrei Albu
Andrei Albu
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No Dec 18, 2014

Samuel Murray wrote:

Sheila Wilson wrote:
Maybe this is why the client wants some proof that you don't live in Greece. It isn't a reason for us to scrabble around trying to prove where we live - our registered address appears on the invoice, after all. But it may be easier for the client if you give proof.


Yes, it sounds like it could have something to do with income tax instead of VAT. So what the OP needs to do is to prove that she does not live in Greece, and that should be fairly simple: don't all EU residents have residence cards? Simply scan the residence card, and cross out the numbered bits. Perhaps the client also accepts an EU driving licence as proof of residence.


I trade as a company, not as an individual. So a valid VAT EU number should suffice.


 
Samuel Murray
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@Andrei Dec 18, 2014

Andrei Albu wrote:
Shouldn't such requests be made PRIOR to any business engagement?


Ideally, yes. But it happens sometimes that the PM only discovers that there is missing documentation by the time his accountant asks him for it.


 
Thomas T. Frost
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Residence cards Dec 18, 2014

Samuel Murray wrote:

don't all EU residents have residence cards? Simply scan the residence card, and cross out the numbered bits. Perhaps the client also accepts an EU driving licence as proof of residence.


No. EU residence cards - or permits - were abolished some ten years ago. You are required to register when you settle in another EU member state. Here in Germany, nobody has given me any card. I got a statement that I had registered, that's all.

An EU driving licence doesn't necessarily state your current address, and they remain valid even when you move elsewhere in the EU. Mine still has an old address that has been current since 1993, and from another country.


 
Niina Lahokoski
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Common in Spain Dec 18, 2014

I have only been requested this by some of my Spanish clients, not all, though. I suppose it must be a misunderstanding on their part, but as I'm by no means familiar with the Spanish tax laws, I could of course be wrong.

I would perhaps understand the need for the certificate in a situation where I didn't have a foreign VAT ID and had a Spanish bank account to receive payments, and/or a Spanish address (while living in the country temporarily and still paying taxes in my home count
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I have only been requested this by some of my Spanish clients, not all, though. I suppose it must be a misunderstanding on their part, but as I'm by no means familiar with the Spanish tax laws, I could of course be wrong.

I would perhaps understand the need for the certificate in a situation where I didn't have a foreign VAT ID and had a Spanish bank account to receive payments, and/or a Spanish address (while living in the country temporarily and still paying taxes in my home country). Otherwise I don't see why I, as a VAT registered entrepreneur, would have to prove to a client that I'm not paying income tax in their country. No clients in other countries have ever requested this certificate, and I doubt even Spanish companies in other industries (in web design, for example) would demand it from their foreign suppliers in order to pay them in full.

In any case, I find it easiest to just provide the certificate when requested - all it takes is a phone call to the tax office, scanning the document when it arrives, and sending it by email.

[Edited at 2014-12-18 16:45 GMT]
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Thomas T. Frost
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You could Dec 18, 2014

Andrei Albu wrote:

Thomas Frost wrote:

Can you find a model for such a certificate and edit it to say what they want?

If customers are so difficult, that could be a way out. So long as it only states true facts, I wouldn't worry too much.


No, they already sent me a sample signed and stamped by the Romanian tax authorities. I cannot do it myself.


You could with Photoshop or a similar image editor.


 
Andrei Albu
Andrei Albu
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Again, no Dec 18, 2014

Thomas Frost wrote:

You could with Photoshop or a similar image editor.


The sample they sent me was from the tax authorities of another county than the one I live in. So, they want a similar one, signed and stamped by the tax authorities in my county. In any case, it would be illegal for me to "fabricate" it myself and I wouldn't want to go into that. I am waiting for their reply, and if nothing else, I will forget about the 20%. And then make a Blue Board entry, to warn others to open their eyes wide before commiting into anything with this company.


 
Samuel Murray
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Agree with Andrei about falsifying documents Dec 18, 2014

Andrei Albu wrote:
Thomas Frost wrote:
You could with Photoshop or a similar image editor.

It would be illegal for me to "fabricate" it myself and I wouldn't want to go into that.


Yes, you shouldn't do that.


 
Samuel Murray
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@Thomas Dec 18, 2014

Thomas Frost wrote:
Samuel Murray wrote:
Don't all EU residents have residence cards?

No. EU residence cards - or permits - were abolished some ten years ago.


Thanks for the correction. Let me rephrase: don't all Romanian residents have a residence card?

That said, I acknowledge the OP's reply that she does not represent herself but a company, and proving the residence of the owners or employees of the company should not be relevant.

I tried to verify but could not determine if having a VAT number in the EU can be considered proof of address of the company.


 
Andrei Albu
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I am a HE Dec 18, 2014

Samuel Murray wrote:

That said, I acknowledge the OP's reply that she does not represent herself but a company, and proving the residence of the owners or employees of the company should not be relevant.

I tried to verify but could not determine if having a VAT number in the EU can be considered proof of address of the company.


Samuel, the OP is still a male to this date. And intends to remain so

If you check my VAT No. in VIES, here is what you get:

VIES VAT number validation


Yes, valid VAT number

Member State RO
VAT Number RO 3145383
Date when request received 2014/12/18 17:36:28
Name STEADY PROMOTION SRL
Address MUNICIPIUL BUCUREŞTI, SECTOR 2
STR. PALEOLOGU Nr. 5A
Et. MEZAN
Ap. 1

This is proof of the company's domicile. Now, if I choose to work while on vacation from a sunny beach on an exotic island is irrelevant. But this has not been the case. What matters is that my business is legally registered in Romania, where I am duly paying all my taxes.

[Edited at 2014-12-18 16:41 GMT]


 
Thomas T. Frost
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I know Dec 18, 2014

Samuel Murray wrote:

Andrei Albu wrote:
Thomas Frost wrote:
You could with Photoshop or a similar image editor.

It would be illegal for me to "fabricate" it myself and I wouldn't want to go into that.


Yes, you shouldn't do that.


Yes, it would be illegal, and I want to underscore that I only suggested it on condition that no false information was written, and only because the agency is being unreasonable.

It would also be illegal not to pay the invoice in full, of course.


 
Dr. Matthias Schauen
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@Thomas, Place of supply of services, place of delivery Dec 18, 2014

Thomas Frost wrote:

No, for the purpose of VAT, the place of delivery is considered to be at the client's premises. That's not the same as considering that the work takes place there.


Are you sure? In the German VAT legislation (§ 3a Abs. 2 and Abs. 4 UStG) the service is said to be carried out at the client's site ( Eine sonstige Leistung, die an einen Unternehmer für dessen Unternehmen ausgeführt wird, wird [...] an dem Ort ausgeführt, von dem aus der Empfänger sein Unternehmen betreibt. ). The EU VAT Directive (2006/112/EC, Art. 196 and 56 and others) talks about the place of supply of services. To me this seems to be not the same as place of delivery, but I am certainly not a law or tax expert.


 
Thomas T. Frost
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Place of supply Dec 18, 2014

Dr. Matthias Schauen wrote:

Thomas Frost wrote:

No, for the purpose of VAT, the place of delivery is considered to be at the client's premises. That's not the same as considering that the work takes place there.


Are you sure? In the German VAT legislation (§ 3a Abs. 2 and Abs. 4 UStG) the service is said to be carried out at the client's site ( Eine sonstige Leistung, die an einen Unternehmer für dessen Unternehmen ausgeführt wird, wird ... an dem Ort ausgeführt, von dem aus der Empfänger sein Unternehmen betreibt. ). The EU VAT Directive (2006/112/EC, Art. 196 and 56 and others) talks about the place of supply of services. To me this seems to be not the same as place of delivery, but I am certainly not a law or tax expert.


In any case, this only concerns VAT, not income tax.

With place of delivery, I mean place of supply, which is the official wording. That doesn't say anything about where the work has been carried out.

I'm not very good at legal German, and I'm unable to analyse the snippet above. German VAT law has to be in conformity with the EU VAT Directive in any case.

[Edited at 2014-12-18 16:49 GMT]


 
Dr. Matthias Schauen
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Older thread with the same problem; diferent types of supplying Dec 18, 2014

Here is an older thread with the same problem: http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/202615-portuguese_agency_deducts_taxes_even_with_vat_id.html

That thread also contains some posts underscoring the differing (and probably off-topic) views Thomas and I have here: Translation is a service that we are supplying, and this is
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Here is an older thread with the same problem: http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/202615-portuguese_agency_deducts_taxes_even_with_vat_id.html

That thread also contains some posts underscoring the differing (and probably off-topic) views Thomas and I have here: Translation is a service that we are supplying, and this is different from the supplying of goods. The German language in the German VAT Act makes this clearer by using different words for the two types of supply - Ausführung (carrying out) vs. Lieferung (delivery).
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Andrei Albu
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Intangible service Dec 18, 2014

Dr. Matthias Schauen wrote:

Here is an older thread with the same problem: http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/202615-portuguese_agency_deducts_taxes_even_with_vat_id.html

That thread also contains some posts underscoring the differing (and probably off-topic) views Thomas and I have here: Translation is a service that we are supplying, and this is different from the supplying of goods. The German language in the German VAT Act makes this clearer by using different words for the two types of supply - Ausführung (carrying out) vs. Lieferung (delivery).


This reminds me of a German client who requests that I write "intangible service" in my invoices. But they do not solicit a residence certificate, and neither deduct anything from my invoice!

[Edited at 2014-12-18 17:18 GMT]


 
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Is a residence certificate needed in EU if I have a valid EU VAT number?







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