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Low rates for easy work?
Thread poster: Phil Hand
LEXpert
LEXpert  Identity Verified
United States
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Member (2008)
Croatian to English
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Cutting and pasting can be tricky Dec 18, 2014

I don't know if I'd necessarily consider that kind of work "easy" - you still have to format the templates and *thoroughly* check for any differences, which can be painstaking work, especially if there are numbers involved. I proofread many documents that are of a semi-repetitive nature, e.g., ethics committee correspondence and the like, and I can always tell when the customer has asked the translator to work from a reference file, because there are often errors like dates, figures or other sma... See more
I don't know if I'd necessarily consider that kind of work "easy" - you still have to format the templates and *thoroughly* check for any differences, which can be painstaking work, especially if there are numbers involved. I proofread many documents that are of a semi-repetitive nature, e.g., ethics committee correspondence and the like, and I can always tell when the customer has asked the translator to work from a reference file, because there are often errors like dates, figures or other small details that have not been updated. These are tricky to catch because they don't stand out as obvious mistakes on reading the target text. Also, customers are often mistaken about the extent of the changes/differences, which can be more extensive than they believe.

I might go to my minimum for something like this, but not below.
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Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 23:27
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Online "system" Dec 18, 2014

Sheila Wilson wrote:

...I'd have made it crystal clear in my acceptance email that this rate was acceptable for THIS job, and ONLY this job. I'd feel it important to have that in black and white, to refer them to when they next send a very complicated job for the same rate and feign surprise at a refusal based on the too-low rate.

This is the part I really regret: the agency has a "system" where they throw up their files, with a fixed rate attached, and any one of us eager beavers can grab it on a first-come-first-served basis. (Don't know how they get away with it in terms of confidentiality!) So there was literally zero contact with any PM on this. I generally don't even look at the jobs "available" on their system, but I was bored...

Rudolf wrote:

...painstaking work, especially if there are numbers involved...

That is a good point. I used to be terrible with numbers, though I haven't had any complaints for a few years now. CAT tools help a lot with that!


 
Anton Konashenok
Anton Konashenok  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 16:27
French to English
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"Rate" is a dangerous term Dec 18, 2014

A problem with some agencies is that once you made an exception and accepted a rate below your minimum, they start treating this exception as your new rate, even if you had told them otherwise when accepting that job. It happened to me in the past, so now I never accept a rate below my minimum, but I may be willing to accept the job for a flat fee equivalent to such a low rate - just so as not to set a precedent for the agency.

 
John Fossey
John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 11:27
Member (2008)
French to English
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Normal vs special rates Dec 18, 2014

What I have done sometimes in this situation is bill at my "normal" rate then discount it on the invoice as a "special" to reach the agreed rate. This way the message is clear that this is not my "new normal" rate.

 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:27
English to German
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Easy? Dec 18, 2014

Phil Hand wrote:

What do you all think about accepting this kind of job? The word rate was low - not absurd, but 2/3 of my minimum, so not something I'd usually consider. I don't really want to encourage this kind of business. But for these particular documents, it was worth it.


I don't think much of it at all. Let's put it that way.
Who's supposed to say it's easy work? Who are you? An experienced translator or an amateur? (I know which one you are).
It's one of those ideas clients or outsourcers have that our work is comparable to putting dishes in a dish washing machine. They see themselves as upper management or owner who cashes in on our cheap labor.

No, to judge if a translation is not only correct but excellent, efficient etc. it takes special skill, education, life experience, talent etc. I acquired these skills (and they didn't come cheap, believe me) and rightfully will charge an adequate fee that I will determine. It takes a professional to do professional work. Even if texts seem easy to a translator, that's a very relative statement. It should never be confused with an outsourcer saying: that's easy work, any chap can do that, therefore we pay you peanuts.


Yes, a project manager can find something is easy and worth peanuts. It doesn't make it so.
Go to your lawyer and tell him that the phone call he made for you with the words he has used a thousand times and some that he only used for your case are all pretty easy stuff and that you will pay him $75.00 instead of 250.00/hr
He'll laugh you out of his office after he has pointed to the certificates and degrees he's got hanging on the wall.

We should never forget what kind of work we really provide and to which other professions and remunerations it should be compared to.


 
Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 23:27
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Huh Dec 19, 2014

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

I don't think much of it at all... it takes special skill, education, life experience, talent etc...lawyer...certificates and degrees

That's a good argument. Lawyers make the big bucks because they don't lower their rates, because even though the work is easy for me, it's still the product of my degrees and years of experience. That's true: invoice vocab is very tricky.

I am persuaded. I will stick to my minimum rate (or higher!) and not dive into the dirty water any more.


 
Preston Decker
Preston Decker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:27
Chinese to English
Thoughts Dec 19, 2014

Sad to see you join the "minimum" camp Phil!

I have two problems with this whole argument against going under one's 'minimum'. The first is in regards to why we translators think of our minimum charge in terms of dollars per character (word) and not dollars per hour; I simply don't understand why so many of us value our per character charge over our real hourly earnings. To paraphrase Lincoln, I would much rather translate a text at .05 USD per character for a high hourly wage over
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Sad to see you join the "minimum" camp Phil!

I have two problems with this whole argument against going under one's 'minimum'. The first is in regards to why we translators think of our minimum charge in terms of dollars per character (word) and not dollars per hour; I simply don't understand why so many of us value our per character charge over our real hourly earnings. To paraphrase Lincoln, I would much rather translate a text at .05 USD per character for a high hourly wage over high per character rate/low hourly wage.

Is there any other profession where people would argue in favor of reducing one's earnings because of a per unit billing system? If I tell my plumber that I'll pay him one dollar for every pipe he replaces, he'd look at me sideways, do his work, and then charge me 75 dollars for the hour worked, regardless of how many pipes he replaced. And before anyone says that we are different than workers such as plumbers, many lawyers bill by the hour too! They do this because it makes sense, evens the playing field for all customers, and allows for differences in the difficulty of the work they're performing. If there is one cause that more translators should get behind, it is to increase the use of hourly billing in our profession. If a lawyer can charge 300 USD per hour, why shouldn't translators change our minimums from dollars per word to dollars per hour? I'm not the first to say this: http://thoughtsontranslation.com/2012/11/08/billing-by-the-word-the-hour-or-the-project/ .

So to me, going beneath your 'minimum' charge should refer to going beneath your minimum hourly charge, not your minimum per word charge, and it doesn't look like you did that here.

This brings me to my second point: I think we can justify going beneath our minimum charges (whether hourly or per character). I've yet to see a convincing argument in this thread as to why 'sticking to your guns' all the time and never going under the minimum helps to increase income.

Increasing income is a pretty important part of doing business.

If I'm having a bad month, have completed all of my planned marketing work (i.e. no opportunity cost), and have no planned family engagements (again, no opportunity cost), why shouldn't I accept a one day translation from a client at 80% of my usual rate with them, so long as I feel comfortable that this won't affect my future relationship with them?

Please note that this isn't to say that I'm advocating always "caving" either. Someone earlier gave the example of how they played hardball with a customer and wound up being paid for easy work at a high rate--I think that's great! I just don't like dealing in absolutes. I think there is a time and a place to play hardball, and also a time and place to "cave".





[Edited at 2014-12-19 07:14 GMT]
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Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 23:27
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Yeah, but that's a lot of ifs Dec 19, 2014

Preston Decker wrote:

Is there any other profession where people would argue in favor of reducing one's earnings because of a per unit billing system?

Yeah, all of them! When a stockbroker knocks off at the end of the day, I could give him ten quid to broke some stocks for me. If he took it, he'd be ten quid richer. If he doesn't, he'll forego that income. But he won't take it.

If I tell my plumber that I'll pay him one dollar for every pipe he replaces, he'd look at me sideways, do his work, and then charge me 75 dollars for the hour worked, regardless of how many pipes he replaced.

Sure, but here's my question: can you get 75 per hour from an agency? That's close to what I've been asking, and over the last two years, I think only one agency has ever agreed to pay me by the hour. They're all fixated on rates of 40 euros, 50 dollars. I've done three degrees (equivalent)! Find me the agency that will pay a proper hourly rate and I'll take it. Find me an agency that will pay me as much as a plumber.

I've yet to see a convincing argument in this thread as to why 'sticking to your guns' all the time and never going under the minimum helps to increase income.

Reduces negotiation time? Reduces offers from agencies which can't afford me? Reduces time spent assessing projects, reduces risk of "easy" project turning into monster, sends much more effective signal about quality (and desirability! rates are marketing tools, too) to agencies...
why shouldn't translators change our minimums from dollars per word to dollars per hour?

See above. I would, if I could get anyone to pay me enough. But I think customers are reasonably worried about time estimates being padded. Quotes by the word give them the security they desire. I would be happy to charge either way, but this is the way we've got. Given this method of quoting, and given the fact that the major issue in our industry is clients (agencies) continually working to drag down prices (as is their right and prerogative as companies), what's our best line of defence? Minimums have worked well for me.
If I'm having a bad month, have completed all of my planned marketing work (i.e. no opportunity cost), and have no planned family engagements (again, no opportunity cost), why shouldn't I accept a one day translation from a client at 80% of my usual rate with them, so long as I feel comfortable that this won't affect my future relationship with them?

If...if...so long as... The argument is that that conditional is only very rarely met. In fact, I think it's almost always more profitable to spend my time doing more marketing or working on my skills; in fact, accepting a low rate one day almost always sends a mixed message to a client. Remember that agencies are not people. I have a personal relationship with you - some measure of trust. An agency is a purely economic being which exists only to obtain my product cheap and sell it high.

I'm not sure how committed I am, as you know! But in general I think that getting high rates is the way to get off the treadmill; and being a bit absolutist on rates is the best way to get higher rates.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 16:27
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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@Lincoln Dec 19, 2014

Preston Decker wrote:






[Edited at 2014-12-19 18:45 GMT]


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 23:27
Member
Chinese to English
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Here's your explanation Dec 19, 2014

Samuel Murray wrote:


Some people see the words "rates", "minimum" and go bananas while the rest of the post as well as its entire premise flies over their heads.


 
Preston Decker
Preston Decker  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:27
Chinese to English
RE Dec 23, 2014

Phil, I've been thinking this over for a couple of days.

One of the things I like about running a business (with my partner) is that there is no single right way to do things, and moreover, the 'way' for each individual may change over time. I'm certainly not as established as you are translation-wise, and have no kids, so to me, dipping beneath my minimum and putting in long hours sometimes makes sense.

On the other hand, many of your points make sense to me, and I wi
... See more
Phil, I've been thinking this over for a couple of days.

One of the things I like about running a business (with my partner) is that there is no single right way to do things, and moreover, the 'way' for each individual may change over time. I'm certainly not as established as you are translation-wise, and have no kids, so to me, dipping beneath my minimum and putting in long hours sometimes makes sense.

On the other hand, many of your points make sense to me, and I will certainly continue to think about this going forward.

I do remain very much against putting absolute rules on these sort of things (and from the existence of this post I know you don't deal in absolutes either), as I tend to think completely closing oneself off to opportunities due to preset rules rarely is the best way to go.
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Phil Hand
Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 23:27
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Fair comment Dec 23, 2014

There's definitely room for all models of business, and as you say, the great thing is we can chop and change the way we operate whenever we feel like it. Even if I take this decision today, I might go back on it next year.

 
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