Pages in topic:   [1 2 3 4] >
Proofreading related work, should it be paid for?
Thread poster: Nehad Hussein
Nehad Hussein
Nehad Hussein  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:17
English to Arabic
Jul 13, 2014

Hello,

I need your advice on a money matter with a new client. An agency sent me around 700 words to proofread menus for big restaurant. They agreed to pay me by hour and asked me to send the actual number of hours that I did when the job is finished. We just agreed on the rate. They asked me to use their online CAT tool to finish the job which took me some good hours to read the manual and get used to their features. They have also provided a huge amount of references to check agai
... See more
Hello,

I need your advice on a money matter with a new client. An agency sent me around 700 words to proofread menus for big restaurant. They agreed to pay me by hour and asked me to send the actual number of hours that I did when the job is finished. We just agreed on the rate. They asked me to use their online CAT tool to finish the job which took me some good hours to read the manual and get used to their features. They have also provided a huge amount of references to check against.

So although the job is few hundred words that would usually take an hour, the work associated with it was huge. So am I fair to charge them the time I have consumed so far or they may argue that they just want to pay for the actual changes in the text (not for the extra time)/

Thank you for help.
Collapse


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:17
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
This is an ethical delimma Jul 13, 2014

Theoretically, if you don't read the instructions, you won't be able to do the job well; and if you want to do the job you have to read the instructions, which can takes hours.

I think the client assumes that you need you to read the instructions only one time and if that is the case, I won't charge an extra fee.

I won't work with the client if he requires me to do a lot of reading every time.


 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 12:17
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
Charge for at least some of the time Jul 13, 2014

I would inform the client that I would charge for at least some of the time reading instructions. I don't see it as an ethical issue at all.

In fact I have stopped working for at least one agency that kept sending reference material and asking me to check through large websites for all their end clients, while only paying for small word counts or proofreading a few hundred words. I dropped another because I did not like their CAT and could not work efficiently with it, but they woul
... See more
I would inform the client that I would charge for at least some of the time reading instructions. I don't see it as an ethical issue at all.

In fact I have stopped working for at least one agency that kept sending reference material and asking me to check through large websites for all their end clients, while only paying for small word counts or proofreading a few hundred words. I dropped another because I did not like their CAT and could not work efficiently with it, but they would not pay for the extra time.

I was working for more than twice the time the agencies paid for. Although naturally you do have to find terminology up to a point within the normal rate you set for translating or proofreading, you do have to make a living, and you cannot work for other clients while you are busy reading reference material or setting up and learning to use a new CAT.

Clients come and go - they do not always get as many order form their end clients as they hope for, so there may not be repeat orders for you either.

They ask you to use THEIR CAT, and if every client asked you to do that, you would spend hours - probably for every other job at least - checking how to use it. You can't be expected to remember how to use several different CATs unless they send you work regularly enough to keep up the routine.

Whereas if you use your own CAT, then it is fair enough to assume that the time you spend learning to use it and maintaining the databases are your own investment.
Collapse


 
Thayenga
Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
The task Jul 13, 2014

Well, since your client has asked you to use their online CAT tool, (a means of calculating the time needed for the job) and to also include the reference material they had sent you - which took you some time to look up and read - you should charge the agreed upon rate for the actual proofreading job plus between 50% - 75% of your hourly rate (for 1 hour only as a voluntary courteousy) for the additional duties.

If the client doesn't accept this offer, most probably on the grounds
... See more
Well, since your client has asked you to use their online CAT tool, (a means of calculating the time needed for the job) and to also include the reference material they had sent you - which took you some time to look up and read - you should charge the agreed upon rate for the actual proofreading job plus between 50% - 75% of your hourly rate (for 1 hour only as a voluntary courteousy) for the additional duties.

If the client doesn't accept this offer, most probably on the grounds of this extra charge not having been discussed prior (if applicalbe in your case), then you may inform them of a future surcharge for those assignments that require a lot of reading.

You may also sensibly explain that a genuine proofreading assignment is a mono-lingual job and that this "target text-only" job does not include reading a lot of reference material, let alone compare it with the target text.
Collapse


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:17
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
I'm supprised you have this perception Jul 13, 2014

Thayenga wrote:
You may also sensibly explain that a genuine proofreading assignment is a mono-lingual job and that this "target text-only" job does not include reading a lot of reference material, let alone compare it with the target text.


Most EU clients mean heavy editing by using the term "proofreading". This is particularly true for UK clients. The tendency is that this meaning of "proofreading" is rapidly spreading to the USA.

[Edited at 2014-07-13 15:48 GMT]


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:17
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Is this a well-established agency with a good reputation? Jul 13, 2014

Nehad Hussein wrote:
I need your advice on a money matter with a new client. An agency sent me around 700 words to proofread menus for big restaurant. They agreed to pay me by hour and asked me to send the actual number of hours that I did when the job is finished. We just agreed on the rate.
(Note: please don't answer the title's question by giving their name as that's against forum rules.)

This is a first collaboration with you, so you're an unknown quantity to them really, even if they're fairly confident you're the right choice for the job. So why are they risking that sort of open-ended payment? It seems odd to me. I'm wondering if they're planning to contest the time spent, regardless of how many hours you put on the invoice. But maybe I'm just a cynical old woman!

I charge an hourly rate for proofreading and editing, but it's never totally open-ended for a new client - I always tell them I'll invoice them for a maximum of, say, four hours. Then, if it takes less time I'll charge less (and have a very happy client); if it takes more then I've both earned less per hour and learned a bit more about quoting. Of course, once a client becomes a regular one and knows I'm both capable and fair, then we streamline the admin - I'll just give the text a quick check to make sure it's actually doable and charge however long it takes.


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:17
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
I have this case Jul 13, 2014

A client sent me 20 pages of instructions before they started sending me jobs for a particular account. Based on my experience, these instructions were mostly common sense or irrelevant so I ignored them. I was confident that even if I didn't read the instructions, my translation drafts should still be much better than their other translators'. And it was clear that my draft will be edited by another linguist. So my not reading their instruction was at least not well-justified.

The
... See more
A client sent me 20 pages of instructions before they started sending me jobs for a particular account. Based on my experience, these instructions were mostly common sense or irrelevant so I ignored them. I was confident that even if I didn't read the instructions, my translation drafts should still be much better than their other translators'. And it was clear that my draft will be edited by another linguist. So my not reading their instruction was at least not well-justified.

The jobs had been going on for months but suddenly the PM said they wanted the date format to be in DD/MM/YYYY, not the US way. And this requirement was hidden somewhere in the instructions.

OK. I said sorry and told her that I will change it next time but she insisted on my re-writing the dates on more than 10 small jobs I delivered that day.

I replied "since you will have an editor work on these files anyway, wouldn't be easier for him or her to change the date format? It will be very easy for him. If I have to do the corrections, I have to go over every file and it will take a lot of time."

But she insisted on me doing the corrections. I considered it as a punishment. I told her that I can do it but please don't send me any jobs from now on. Guess she got up from the wrong side of the bed that day.

A couple of days later, she had to recruit new translators for the same client. I didn't lose anything because if I didn't get their jobs, I would get jobs from other clients. I'm fully booked every day anyway. It was their loss, because it is time-consuming to recruit a qualified translator in that field.



[Edited at 2014-07-13 16:11 GMT]
Collapse


 
Thayenga
Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
No surprise Jul 13, 2014

jyuan_us wrote:

Thayenga wrote:
You may also sensibly explain that a genuine proofreading assignment is a mono-lingual job and that this "target text-only" job does not include reading a lot of reference material, let alone compare it with the target text.


Most EU clients mean heavy editing by using the term "proofreading". This is particularly true for UK clients. The tendency is that this meaning of "proofreading" is rapidly spreading to the USA.

[Edited at 2014-07-13 15:48 GMT]


Of course the clients call everything proofreading. It's up to the LSP to explain the difference. And one difference is time. Just proofreading one document in one language takes less time than editing a document in 2 languages while proofreading it. And yes, it is possible to get the difference in both across.


 
Thayenga
Thayenga  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:17
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
The editors Jul 13, 2014

jyuan_us wrote:

The jobs had been going on for months but suddenly the PM said they wanted the date format to be in DD/MM/YYYY, not the US way. And this requirement was hidden somewhere in the instructions.

OK. I said sorry and told her that I will change it next time but she insisted on my re-writing the dates on more than 10 small jobs I delivered that day.

I replied "since you will have an editor work on these files anyway, wouldn't be easier for him or her to change the date format? It will be very easy for him. If I have to do the corrections, I have to go over every file and it will take a lot of time."

But she insisted on me doing the corrections. I considered it as a punishment. I told her that I can do it but please don't send me any jobs from now on. Guess she got up from the wrong side of the bed that day.

A couple of days later, she had to recruit new translators for the same client. I didn't lose anything because if I didn't get their jobs, I would get jobs from other clients. I'm fully booked every day anyway. It was their loss, because it is time-consuming to recruit a qualified translator in that field.



[Edited at 2014-07-13 16:11 GMT]


Once in a while an editor or proofer will voice her or his impression of the translator's work, of having followed the initial instructions provided along with the job. Someone once said that word of mouth is/can be a powerful tool.

But you're all set since that former client of yours found new translators, and you're fully booked.

Personally, I was under the impression that following the client's instructions is part of the project for which I expect to get paid. If I miss an instruction, then of course I will makes all the changes the client asks for. After all, I do expect to get paid for the job, and not just for parts of it. But that's just me, I guess.

[Edited at 2014-07-13 16:21 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:17
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
It is a matter of attitude Jul 13, 2014

Thayenga wrote:

jyuan_us wrote:

The jobs had been going on for months but suddenly the PM said they wanted the date format to be in DD/MM/YYYY, not the US way. And this requirement was hidden somewhere in the instructions.

OK. I said sorry and told her that I will change it next time but she insisted on my re-writing the dates on more than 10 small jobs I delivered that day.

I replied "since you will have an editor work on these files anyway, wouldn't be easier for him or her to change the date format? It will be very easy for him. If I have to do the corrections, I have to go over every file and it will take a lot of time."

But she insisted on me doing the corrections. I considered it as a punishment. I told her that I can do it but please don't send me any jobs from now on. Guess she got up from the wrong side of the bed that day.

A couple of days later, she had to recruit new translators for the same client. I didn't lose anything because if I didn't get their jobs, I would get jobs from other clients. I'm fully booked every day anyway. It was their loss, because it is time-consuming to recruit a qualified translator in that field.



[Edited at 2014-07-13 16:11 GMT]


Once in a while an editor or proofer will voice her or his impression of the translator's work, of having followed the initial instructions provided along with the job. Someone once said that word of mouth is/can be a powerful tool.

But you're all set since that former client of yours found new translators, and you're fully booked.

Personally, I was under the impression that following the client's instructions is part of the project for which I expect to get paid. If I miss an instruction, then of course I will makes all the changes the client asks for. After all, I do expect to get paid for the job, and not just for parts of it. But that's just me, I guess.

[Edited at 2014-07-13 16:21 GMT]


I'm not saying I was right in not reading their long instruction. I just got the feeling that she assumed she must punish me one time before I remembered to read their instructions. She thought she was my boss maybe.

Another issue is about flexibility. I already said sorry and I explained the cost-efficient way was for the editor to do the correction. She needed to spent 5 minutes on changing the date format but it would take 20 minutes if I had to do it. And usually, their editor's changes on my versions was typically 4/5 less than the amount of changes than editing their other linguists' works ( I knew this because I was asked to validated the editor's changes other other translators' work from time to time). And if the editor of my files complained about the date format issue and ignored the super quality of my files, he or she could be a super fool. The reason is apparent: She got the same pay editing my works that takes 1/5 of her regular editing time.

In this situation, why did the PM want to go the less efficient way? I still couldn't think of any rationale.



[Edited at 2014-07-13 16:38 GMT]


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:17
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Cost-efficient for whom? Jul 13, 2014

jyuan_us wrote:
I explained the cost-efficient way was for the editor to do the correction. She needed to spent 5 minutes on changing the date format but it would take 20 minutes if I had to do it.

...

In this situation, why did the PM want to go the less efficient way? I still couldn't think of any rationale.

Why on earth should an edit done by you, for no extra payment at all, be a less cost-effective method for the client? A proofreader will normally charge per hour and so could conceivably charge more because of having to change date formats. Anyway, the topic isn't up for discussion, surely: your error; your responsibility to fix.


 
Nehad Hussein
Nehad Hussein  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:17
English to Arabic
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Every one Jul 13, 2014

for taking the time to answer my thread. Thank you Shiela for your reply, It gives me some idea on how both sides would have rough idea of the potential cost.

 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:17
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
In a healthy collaborative relationship, everybody's loss is a loss Jul 13, 2014

Sheila Wilson wrote:
Why on earth should an edit done by you, for no extra payment at all, be a less cost-effective method for the client?


and everybody's waste of time is a waste of time even no money is involved. If you have wasted a lot of your own time without pay, you will sooner or later get it back from the client. We are not talking about one time collaboration anyway.

What is more cost-efficient? The PM wanted something that can be done within 5 minutes to be done by someone else that has to spend 20 minutes. The latter way was less cost-efficient even no money was directly involved.

And if you could look at this from another angle, you may realize that the PM has already wasted her own time by pushing me to do it. It should take her 10 seconds to write to her editor " Sorry my translator put the dates in the US format, can you kindly change it to the UK format" but in her discussion with me she wasted 10 seconds X 50". We hear people say time is money. Wasting your own time means you spend something for nothing, therefore, money-wise, it is not cost-efficient for her.

Does this explain the concept of "cost-efficient"?

By the way, looking back at the postings, I found I didn't use "cost-effective". I always used " cost-efficient " to describe the scenario.

[Edited at 2014-07-13 20:17 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-07-13 20:20 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-07-13 20:56 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-07-13 20:56 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:17
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
It depends Jul 13, 2014

Sheila Wilson wrote:
A proofreader will normally charge per hour and so could conceivably charge more because of having to change date formats. Anyway, the topic isn't up for discussion, surely: your error; your responsibility to fix.


"A proofreader will normally charge per hour" is not always the case. Most agencies rather have a set rate per source word for proofreading jobs. Charging by hour is too subjective, which might affect the proofer's performance in a negative way. For example, he or she may over-correct an already very good version.

This client pays her proofers by word counts, not by hours.


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:17
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
This is so true but you ignored or forgot one thing Jul 13, 2014

Sheila Wilson wrote:
Anyway, the topic isn't up for discussion, surely: your error; your responsibility to fix.


A translation draft for which you are paid for translation only, not translation + editing + proofreading, is NOT error-free. Good translators want to minimize errors but some errors are unavoidable on a version that assumes further editing and proofreading. If not, why editing or proofreading is needed in the first place?

A format of date error is not different in severity to syntax errors or inaccuracies. Compared with the latter, it could even be considered as a minor error, because it is easy to fix it.

The implication is that if there are errors on a translation copy, it is the editor's duty to correct the errors. Correcting the errors is what the editor is paid for. Correcting the date format is no different to correcting other errors.




[Edited at 2014-07-13 20:54 GMT]


 
Pages in topic:   [1 2 3 4] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

Proofreading related work, should it be paid for?







CafeTran Espresso
You've never met a CAT tool this clever!

Translate faster & easier, using a sophisticated CAT tool built by a translator / developer. Accept jobs from clients who use Trados, MemoQ, Wordfast & major CAT tools. Download and start using CafeTran Espresso -- for free

Buy now! »
Trados Studio 2022 Freelance
The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.

Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.

More info »