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1 Euro per 100 words-Fair price?
Thread poster: Translatorprof
Vladimir Pochinov
Vladimir Pochinov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 08:28
English to Russian
+1 Jun 16, 2014

jyuan_us wrote:

accents_ie wrote:

There are many people willing to work in the UK just for GBP 2.00 per hour and agree for any paid job at that rates. That is about GBP 8.00 per 4 hours or about 1 euro cent per word.

Be real.

[Edited at 2014-06-15 09:01 GMT]


This is weird. Does UK have a minimum wage law in place?


Good question indeed I might have asked it myself but I was busy punching my keyboard so as to come up with my comment to another point mentioned in this thread.


 
Vladimir Pochinov
Vladimir Pochinov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 08:28
English to Russian
I have shared a link to this thread in my LinkedIn profile page Jun 16, 2014

I have quite a few agency clients; existing and/or potential direct clients; fellow translators, editors, and proofreaders; representatives of IT industry and software developers, among my LinkedIn connections.

By sharing a link to this thread I am hoping to save some time to all parties involved, whenever we might need to identify some common ground for mutually beneficial (long-term) collaboration.

Mind you, I have been working really hard for almost 30 years (exclud
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I have quite a few agency clients; existing and/or potential direct clients; fellow translators, editors, and proofreaders; representatives of IT industry and software developers, among my LinkedIn connections.

By sharing a link to this thread I am hoping to save some time to all parties involved, whenever we might need to identify some common ground for mutually beneficial (long-term) collaboration.

Mind you, I have been working really hard for almost 30 years (excluding my five years as an university student) to reach the point when I might speak my mind on the topic to any CEO of any Fortune 100 corporation, should a chance arise... and I did have such chances in my professional career
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Translatorprof
Translatorprof
United Kingdom
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks all! Jun 16, 2014

Hi all,

I just wanted to thank everyone for your replies, there's been some really useful info in here so thanks for taking the time, much appreciated

This client really takes the biscuit here, not only do they want to pay 0.01 as opposed to 0.10 but they want to base it on the target language not the source (Spanish >English) which generally reduces by approx 30 % so, even worse than I initially thought
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Hi all,

I just wanted to thank everyone for your replies, there's been some really useful info in here so thanks for taking the time, much appreciated

This client really takes the biscuit here, not only do they want to pay 0.01 as opposed to 0.10 but they want to base it on the target language not the source (Spanish >English) which generally reduces by approx 30 % so, even worse than I initially thought!

Thanks once again for your time, hope every one has a good week





[Edited at 2014-06-16 14:11 GMT]
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John Fossey
John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 02:28
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
Beggar's wages Jun 16, 2014

jyuan_us wrote:

Loise wrote:

accents_ie wrote:

There are many people willing to work in the UK just for GBP 2.00 per hour and agree for any paid job at that rates. That is about GBP 8.00 per 4 hours or about 1 euro cent per word.

Be real.


People working at McDonald's HK make 33% more money per hour than so many translators working for UK agencies?

Sad reality.


There are people who choose to beg in New York who could make less than $1 an hour but they are not in the main stream. The people described in the post to which you have commented is weird.


Somebody once asked a street beggar what he made and he said he collects $15 for every hour he "works". We hope translators can get more than that!


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:28
Hebrew to English
I think not Jun 16, 2014

accents_ie wrote:
There are many people willing to work in the UK just for GBP 2.00 per hour and agree for any paid job at that rates. That is about GBP 8.00 per 4 hours or about 1 euro cent per word.

Be real.

[Edited at 2014-06-15 09:01 GMT]


I've lived here all my life and I've yet to meet anyone willing to work for two quid an hour.

Most people scoff at the minimum wage (which is over three times that) so I can guarantee there won't be a queue forming for jobs offering £2 in the UK.


 
Frankie JB
Frankie JB
France
English to French
+ ...
self-slavery is galloping... Jun 16, 2014

John Fossey wrote:

Somebody once asked a street beggar what he made and he said he collects $15 for every hour he "works". We hope translators can get more than that!


That's exactly what I thought recently when someone (see here: http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/269788-finding_a_price_per_line.html ) said she had translated one million words for $140.... (and seemingly this was not a troll!). It's really frightening to see what a number of less-enlightened people stoop to do when they feel insecure about their future... I didn't know there were so many supposedly educated people with the virus of poverty in European welfare nations...


 
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 07:28
English to Polish
+ ...
Lowballers Jun 16, 2014

It costs nothing to try, and the market is already dominated by buyers, many of whom don't understand how things work, aren't really professional and/or are one-time buyers.

Pricing and discounting practices are perhaps not too consistent in our 'industry', so translators may end up not knowing how to price their services and learning from their clients, including middlemen, instead. That, in turn, may invite some clients to try unorthodox solutions and use their power as leverage.<
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It costs nothing to try, and the market is already dominated by buyers, many of whom don't understand how things work, aren't really professional and/or are one-time buyers.

Pricing and discounting practices are perhaps not too consistent in our 'industry', so translators may end up not knowing how to price their services and learning from their clients, including middlemen, instead. That, in turn, may invite some clients to try unorthodox solutions and use their power as leverage.

When somebody from a European country — barring the poorest countries as outliers — offers effectively €0.01 per word, it probably doesn't make sense trying to negotiate. It's hard to think they'd up it to six or seven, which is still not a bonanza anyway. Even three cents would be a 300% overbid. So just ask the client if that's a typo since there seems to be a zero missing, and if not, then just restate your price and say goodbye.

It's important not to negotiate in such situations, especially with professional clients. Individuals, especially in a dire economic situation, could be granted a discount or a special price for individuals/consumers if you feel like it.

... But by negotiating with such offers, even taking time to dispute them, we are lending them legitimacy. In contrast, we should treat them like the absurdities that they are.*

* With the reservation that every once in a while one runs into a first-time translation buyer. It wouldn't be fair to blame such a newbie too much for approaching a translator right away rather than first researching the prices, so there's no need to be too hard on such a client, but it's obviously still a strange idea for a businessperson who is an utter newbie to purchasing certain goods or services — and should be conscious of the fact — to just come in and propose or even try to dictate a price. Thus, no walking on eggshells with a robust business client.
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Diana Obermeyer
Diana Obermeyer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:28
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Sure there is Jun 16, 2014

Ty Kendall wrote:

accents_ie wrote:
There are many people willing to work in the UK just for GBP 2.00 per hour and agree for any paid job at that rates. That is about GBP 8.00 per 4 hours or about 1 euro cent per word.

Be real.

[Edited at 2014-06-15 09:01 GMT]


I've lived here all my life and I've yet to meet anyone willing to work for two quid an hour.

Most people scoff at the minimum wage (which is over three times that) so I can guarantee there won't be a queue forming for jobs offering £2 in the UK.


UK minimum wage = GBP 6.31/hour x 40 hours x 52 weeks = GBP 13,124.80 less tax = approx GBP 12,630
UK welfare = (GBP 70/week x 52 weeks) + (housing benefits average 300/month x 12 months) + contribution towards council tax GBP 60/month x 12 months = GBP 7,960

The difference is not great, so I don't blame anyone for not working... I worked in food processing for a few years, in the most unskilled jobs there, the going rate is about GBP 7/hour. They can't find workers, even in areas with 20% unemployment, so there is an active drive to attract workers from Eastern Europe to meet demand.

However, apprentice wages are not much above GBP 2/hour and there are plenty of people in the UK who do not have a work permit and plenty of people who will abuse that. I'd imagine that they pay similar rates. In the equine industry, half the grooms are on less than 100/week, usually with accommodation (or something remotely related to it) but then on an 80+ hour week...

I believe it is this segment that "doesn't fit the system", which the poster referred to here.

Of course, if you're entitled to 2/3 the income you'd earn on minimum wage without lifting a finger, and you have no skills or drive to move to a higher paid role, you are in a very tempting situation. If you're not entitled to it, you might just take whatever you're offered and hope you don't get caught.


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 06:28
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
The minimum wage is for a declared (i.e. legal) employee only Jun 16, 2014

dianaft wrote:
there are plenty of people in the UK who do not have a work permit and plenty of people who will abuse that. I'd imagine that they pay similar rates.

There are also all those people who translate as a "sideline": retirees (who can certainly sometimes do a very good job but see it as a "hobby"), bored housewives, single parents who have to try to juggle work and kids at home, schoolkids and students working maybe from 11pm to 3am, people already doing at least 40-50hpw in salaried jobs but still not making ends meet... But this is one market, and the outsourcers who cater for it by paying translators 0.01€ should be charging 0.02€ to their clients (who would most of the time be better off using Google Translate).

Anyone asking a professional freelance translator to do a professional-quality translation should realise that they will be earning their living from it; paying taxes and social contributions which probably amount to half the rate; paying for their own continued training, holidays, retirement fund, hardware and software, office space, professional membership fees... And I bet there isn't an outsourcer out there that isn't selling a supposedly professional translation for less than 0.06€ per word to the end client. 0.01€ to the person who does the work and 0.05€ for the broker? That's exploitation, and it stinks, AFAIC.

A reputable agency selling guaranteed serviceable translations to business clients (i.e. most of the ones we have contacts with) will probably be charging 0.20€ minimum per word. So they can afford to pay us 0.10€ at least. And these are minima. BTW I'm talking about Europe and European languages in the main - perhaps things are slightly different elsewhere.


 
Vladimir Pochinov
Vladimir Pochinov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 08:28
English to Russian
@John Fossey: A joke illustrating the other party's standpoint Jun 16, 2014

John Fossey wrote:

Somebody once asked a street beggar what he made and he said he collects $15 for every hour he "works". We hope translators can get more than that!


Somebody once asked an old lady peddling some herbal extracts at the street corner:

- Do they really help?
- Why, you bet they do. I have just bought a Bentley for myself, and I bought a 5-bedroom villa in the Bahamas last month for my daughter and her children, so that they have a place to stay at on their holidays...

Obviously, the bottom lines might look entirely different, when viewed from a different angle.

Vladimir Mayakovsky, a Russian poet and somewhat of a cult figure in the post-1917 Russia, wrote in one of his better-known poems that "If someone turns on the sun, it means someone needs it up there."

You may try and re-phrase this famous line, with a view to come up with possible versions applicable to the topic under discussion. I am interested in seeing the end results of this joint effort

Here is my first go to get you started: "If someone keeps offering rates in the $0.01 range day in and day out, then there is someone willing to accept such rates."



The resultant lines may even be used subsequently as key points in a Keynote (hi Mac lovers!) or PowerPoint (hi Windows haters!) presentation freely distributed to potential clients in the hope that it might enhance their awareness of what the translation industry players really feel about the latest developments


 
Vladimir Pochinov
Vladimir Pochinov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 08:28
English to Russian
1,000,000 words for $140... Jun 16, 2014

Frankie JB wrote:

John Fossey wrote:

Somebody once asked a street beggar what he made and he said he collects $15 for every hour he "works". We hope translators can get more than that!


That's exactly what I thought recently when someone (see here: http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/269788-finding_a_price_per_line.html ) said she had translated one million words for $140.... (and seemingly this was not a troll!).


Hi Frankie,

I totally agree that the job poster might not be a troll, but for a very different reason. Like I mentioned in my previous posting you may never even guess the underlying factors in other people's decisions that may look wayward, laughable, disgusting, or despicable to you.

Aren't you forgetting something?

"Do not judge, so that you won't be judged" (as I understand the exact wording may vary by country)

I have a direct question to ask as an outsourcer:

Do you think you could ever agree to translate a 40,000-word user manual for US$ 880?

I might be spoiling the "Prestige" culmination (if you happen to love the movie like I do) , but there is a specific reason why I am asking this question. So please try and come up with a possible scenario which might make this fixed price acceptable to you.

My personal answer is "I did just that, but ... [TO BE CONTINUED]"

N.B. The phrase in the square brackets was very common in the manuals I have been translating for this client for about 10 years... and our business relationship did fizzle out when I advised them that it's about time that I raise my rate for this type of translation.

Please don't be in a hurry to tell me that it was just a lesson to be learned, because it was indeed... but for a very different reason


 
Vladimir Pochinov
Vladimir Pochinov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 08:28
English to Russian
My 2, 3, or even 5 cents Jun 17, 2014

Well, it's 5:40am here in Moscow and it's about time to follow Mr Boris Yeltsin's suit: "I am leaving. I did all I could" (for today).

Ironically enough, I use this citation on the day that may turn out to be yet another "Day" in my life, because a casual phone conversation with an owner of a Moscow-based boutique translation agency staffed (and run) by former engineers (and as far as I know, they are the only agency in, at least, Moscow to exclusively employ formally trained engine
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Well, it's 5:40am here in Moscow and it's about time to follow Mr Boris Yeltsin's suit: "I am leaving. I did all I could" (for today).

Ironically enough, I use this citation on the day that may turn out to be yet another "Day" in my life, because a casual phone conversation with an owner of a Moscow-based boutique translation agency staffed (and run) by former engineers (and as far as I know, they are the only agency in, at least, Moscow to exclusively employ formally trained engineers) have provoked a train of thoughts which culminated in the decision to leave the translation industry... in my current capacity.

This means my recent plans to launch a boutique agency of my own might be put on the back burner for a while. This further means that my next citation will, quite predictably, be that of A.Schwarzennegger... do I really need to remind you of that one?.. OK, just in case, all together now: "I'll be back!" (in a new role)

[TO BE CONTINUED] (hopefully, tomorrow)

Please make sure to read one of my previous postings in this thread to understand the above allusion.

Bye for now, it's about time to join my wife (I hear her snoring happily in our bedroom right now:)

AN UPDATE: Just one final touch

P.S. Don't worry too much about my work and personal life balance, or chronic lack of sleep... I have no problem on both counts, it's just that I have to keep strange working hours right now, to be able to respond to the needs of my clients residing in the USA and Canada, and to answer to certain queries from my team members residing across the Atlantic. Moreover, my decision to re-focus and reconsider my priorities is partly attributable that the ultimate goal of my hard work was to retire early for two reasons:

1) I am very lazy really, and a lotus-eater to boot (or should I use the term "a man of pleasure" here?);
2) I am eager to down-shift to some extent, provided that my income remains unchanged... or goes skyrocketing.

[Edited at 2014-06-17 01:41 GMT]
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Michelle Kusuda
Michelle Kusuda  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:28
English to Spanish
+ ...
I did not write the highlighted quote in your post. Jun 17, 2014

Thayenga wrote:

Michelle Kusuda wrote:


Working for EUR 0.01 per word - and I've seen less being offered! - means that you would have to work 24/7 to be able to even pay your rent (unless you own a house, and even that generates costs).

As understable as it is that you are eager to secure your first job, don't . never! - sell yourself short.


This is the email I received, I think we are talking about the same offer:


Estimada Michelle:

¡Muchas gracias por su mensaje! ¡Su currículo es muy bueno!

Es la página en facebook de nuestro blog en español https://www.facebook.com/MejorConSalud?ref=ts&fref=ts. Actualmente es uno de los blogs más populares sobre salud hasta el momento tenemos sus versiones en portugués, francés, alemán e italiano. Y pronto sacamos una versión en inglés.

Nuestra tarifa es 1 EUR (o sea, 1,35 dólares) por 100 palabras

Si le parece bien, póngase en contacto conmigo, le envío una prueba.



The typo lies in the EUR 0.10. And yes, I received the same offer: 100 words for EUR 0.01, which was filed in the appropriate folder: File 13. [/quote]


 
Prima Vista
Prima Vista
Russian Federation
Local time: 11:28
Russian to English
+ ...
For those who translate to/from Russian Jul 29, 2014

what's your reasonable average per word?

 
DLyons
DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 06:28
Spanish to English
+ ...
accents_ie is apparently located in Dublin, Ireland (in the EU, not UK). Jul 29, 2014

Vladimir Pochinov wrote:

accents_ie wrote:

There are many people willing to work in the UK just for GBP 2.00 per hour and agree for any paid job at that rates. That is about GBP 8.00 per 4 hours or about 1 euro cent per word.

Be real.

[Edited at 2014-06-15 09:01 GMT]


This is weird. Does UK have a minimum wage law in place?

[/quote]

They are apparently a subcontractor to agencies. Several of their postings suggest they work at the lowest end of the market, and they quote figures which are outside Irish legal limits.


 
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1 Euro per 100 words-Fair price?







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