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Should Translation Be Mixed with Personal Understanding and/or Explanation?
Autor de la hebra: coolfool
coolfool
China
Local time: 19:34
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PERSONA QUE INICIÓ LA HEBRA
The original poem tells, I'm afraid Mar 18

Fargoer wrote:

没有理解,寸步难行。

譬如鸟儿,在哪儿呢?有几只?原文都没说。都靠读者自己理解。如果有人抬杠说:“其实只有一只鸟在笼子里。诗人一觉醒来,提着鸟笼到处溜达,走到哪都能听到鸟叫声。” 我能说什么?


Please see 处处闻啼鸟. Front this point on, if you agree with me, can we arrive safely at one of conclusions that there're countless birds, chittering and chattering, all over there, not to mention those that have yet to twitter?

[修改时间: 2017-03-18 14:25 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
Estados Unidos
Local time: 06:34
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+ ...
摩天大楼很遥远 Mar 18

Fargoer wrote:

田园生活很遥远

ysun wrote:
 
 根据我们的生活经验,住所周围的各种鸟儿通常在日出之前、天朦朦亮时就会开始啼叫,因为 the early bird catches the worm。春天刚出生不久嗷嗷待哺的幼鸟则叫得更欢。 

看来您有生活。

“处处闻啼鸟” 的时间,确实应该是在日出之前。鸟儿也是春眠初醒,抖擞精神,互道早安呢!

“诗人睡得真香,以至旭日临窗,才甜梦初醒” ,说的大概是“曼哈顿摩天大楼居民”的生活。 在乡野田舍, “旭日临窗” 的时候,天早就大亮了。就算尚未“日上三竿风露消”,鸟儿肯定早就吃饱了,哪还有兴致歌唱? 

[修改时间: 2017-03-18 05:51 GMT]

俺山野村民,住不起摩天大楼,就只能住老农村了。 有一次我离家还没出社区,就差点撞上三头梅花鹿。海归陈丹青写了篇文章 《大家别去美国了,一个落后的国度》 ,挖苦美国是个还未开发的大农村、原始社会,却还挨了批。 他说他刚到美国时,还错以为到了柬埔寨。你们加拿大不是比美国更“原始”吗?

我尊重百科上那位评论家的理解:“诗人睡得真香,以至旭日临窗,才甜梦初醒” 。人家也许是从春光明媚那个角度去理解。但是,某些爱抬杠的人也许会说,昨夜风雨声大作,说不定今晨还是阴天呢,哪来的旭日临窗!某些穿越时代的人也许还会说,处处是雾霾,哪来旭日临窗!所以说,不同的人会有不同的理解。很可能还有人比许渊冲老先生理解得更深、译得更好。不过,哪些是理解错的、翻得烂的,大家却一眼就能看穿。


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Fargoer
Canadá
Local time: 05:34
inglés al chino
A big "if" Mar 18

coolfool wrote:

Fargoer wrote:

没有理解,寸步难行。

譬如鸟儿,在哪儿呢?有几只?原文都没说。都靠读者自己理解。如果有人抬杠说:“其实只有一只鸟在笼子里。诗人一觉醒来,提着鸟笼到处溜达,走到哪都能听到鸟叫声。” 我能说什么?


Please see 处处闻啼鸟. Front this point on, if you agree with me, can we arrive safely at one of conclusions that there're countless birds, chittering and chattering, all over there, not to mention those that have yet to twitter?

[修改时间: 2017-03-18 14:25 GMT]


In order to agree with you, I have to have some sort of understandings of the original text in common with you. I could only do this "if" you agree with me that we do need to understand the text first and base our translations on our understandings.


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coolfool
China
Local time: 19:34
chino al inglés
PERSONA QUE INICIÓ LA HEBRA
Not till charcoal sprouts Mar 19

I find I have to consult the guy who translates 对公业务 into To Male Service or To Male Business and broaden my humble understanding accordingly.





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David Lin  Identity Verified
Reino Unido
Local time: 12:34
Miembro 2013
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Joking? Mar 19

I think this is just a joke because even Google translation gets the term right: 对公业务= Corporate Banking.

Good luck to your search anyway!


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David Lin  Identity Verified
Reino Unido
Local time: 12:34
Miembro 2013
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Poetry presents particular challenges for translators Mar 20

Coolfool,

Not sure how much you could benefit from the discussion in your thread. Not all of us are experts in traditional poem translation; at least I am not one as I have mentioned in my very first post. I maybe the blind leading the blind. My apologies. Since you're interested in this field, I recommend a book titled, "Thinking Chinese Translation: A Course in Translation Method: Chinese to English" by Valerie Pellatt and Eric T. Liu (Routledge 2010). The book devotes a whole chapter on "Translation of Traditional Poetry" from pp. 154 - 169.

To whet your appetite, I quote an interesting comment of the authors as follows:

To translate great poetry is a norm in literate communities. Yet the nature of poetry seems to defy translation. The business of the poet is to break conventions, to deconstruct, to innovate. Even within a conventional poetic form, such as the sonnet, a poet seeks always to find the new, using language in unconventional ways which cry out to the audience, yet are couched in apparently untranslatable terms. Xu Yuanzhong says that 'the point is how to make what is beautiful in one language appear as beautiful in another' (Xu Yuanzhong et al. 1992:5), but this is not the whole story. Many of the best-loved poems are nothing to do with beauty. They address the whole continuum of earthly existence. They are designed to go straight to the heart of the audience or listener, to cause the reader to identify and empathize with the poet. One of the main tasks of the translator is to render the tight form of a poem, with all its textual qualities and techniques.

At the same time the poet's whisper of irony, whoop of delight, scream of anger or moan of pain must be rendered in such a way that the reader or audience feel it as they would their own whisper, whoop, scream or moan. The poet may flout convention, but the very label 'poetry' constrains the translator in a tight framework of form. Metre, rhythm, rhyme, sonority and image are imposed by the unconventionality of the innovative source poem. Bridging the ocean (for we can sail across -- it is not a chasm) between Asian and European languages may be more of an adventure than slipping next door from, say, French to English, or from Chinese to Vietnamese.


Enjoy reading!


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ysun  Identity Verified
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不足为奇 Mar 20

David Lin wrote:

I think this is just a joke because even Google translation gets the term right: 对公业务= Corporate Banking.

其实没什么可笑的。当一个人(泛指)在嘲笑别人时,很可能别人也正在嘲笑他,只不过他自己不一定觉察或置若罔闻而已。


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ysun  Identity Verified
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It’s just a mutual discussion Mar 20

David Lin wrote:

Not all of us are experts in traditional poem translation; at least I am not one as I have mentioned in my very first post. I maybe the blind leading the blind.

With all due respect, I should say that no one is leading anyone here since everyone in the discussion is in an equal position, not to mention that I didn't see a lot of the blind here. Of course, you may call yourself the blind, as you like. However, please don’t call the other participants the blind. I regret to say that you used this idiom in a wrong situation.

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/the-blind-leading-the-blind
the blind leading the blind

used to say that people who do not know much about what they are doing are guiding or advising others who know nothing at all



[Edited at 2017-03-20 20:39 GMT]


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David Lin  Identity Verified
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Local time: 12:34
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Urban, and modern, usage Mar 20

ysun,

I'm sorry but it's an idiom of modern usage I used to refer only to myself in my post written to the OP, Coolfool. It is not intended for you, or anyone else, in the thread.

The blind leading the blind = When somebody has no clue how to do something and offers someone else some help.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20blind%20leading%20the%20blind


[Edited at 2017-03-20 21:20 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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The blind leading the blind Mar 21

David Lin wrote:

ysun,

I'm sorry but it's an idiom of modern usage I used to refer only to myself in my post written to the OP, Coolfool. It is not intended for you, or anyone else, in the thread.

The blind leading the blind = When somebody has no clue how to do something and offers someone else some help.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the%20blind%20leading%20the%20blind


[Edited at 2017-03-20 21:20 GMT]

David,

Thank you for your explanation. Perhaps, the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English is somewhat out of date in your eyes.

I am not sure if coolfool would feel comfortable with your personal understanding and/or explanation. Even if he would, please rest assured that I will not poke my nose into others’ business.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/67150.html
Meaning
Uninformed and incompetent people leading others who are similarly incapable.”

Origin
This appears in the Bible, Matthew 15:14 - from Miles Coverdale's Bible, 1535:

Let they go, they are ye blynde leaders of ye blynde. Wha one blinde leadeth another, they fall both i ye diche.



http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/blind-leading-the-blind
used to describe a situation where a person who knows nothing is getting advice and help from another person who knows almost nothing

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/when_the_blind_lead_the_blind,_both_shall_fall_into_a_ditch
when the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into a ditch


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coolfool
China
Local time: 19:34
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PERSONA QUE INICIÓ LA HEBRA
The matters may be different, the reason perhaps is one and the same. Mar 21

One more here:



[修改时间: 2017-03-25 05:02 GMT]


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David Lin  Identity Verified
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Local time: 12:34
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Time for a pause Mar 21

Coolfool (OP),

With my recommendation of the book on traditional poem translation, I think I've contributed enough towards this interesting thread. I do not find writing more posts will benefit the discussion any more. This is my last post. It was fun exchanging our views on the rather challenging issues of translating Chinese traditional poems in the past 1+ week.

Bye for now.

David


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ysun  Identity Verified
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Prerequisite for discussion Mar 22

Fargoer wrote:

In order to agree with you, I have to have some sort of understandings of the original text in common with you. I could only do this "if" you agree with me that we do need to understand the text first and base our translations on our understandings.

Fargoer,

I totally agree with you in that “we do need to understand the text first and base our translations on our understandings.” In fact, the example of the ridiculous translation “TO MALE BUSINESS” clearly shows that one would not be able to provide good translations without understanding of the original text. The ridiculous translation was based on misunderstanding, even on ignorance.

However, I think the only prerequisite for participating the discussions should be for all the participants, including the moderators, to abide by the forum rules, and for the moderators to enforce the forum rules promptly as soon as the rules are violated.


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Fargoer
Canadá
Local time: 05:34
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Not personal Mar 22

ysun wrote:

 
However, I think the only prerequisite for participating the discussions should be for all the participants, including the moderators, to abide by the forum rules, and for the moderators to enforce the forum rules promptly as soon as the rules are violated.


I totally agree with you. Rules are rules for all, and not subject to personal understandings.


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Rita Pang  Identity Verified
Canadá
Local time: 07:34
Miembro 2011
chino al inglés
+ ...
A'ight, a'ight Mar 23

Fargoer wrote:
I totally agree with you. Rules are rules for all, and not subject to personal understandings.


Now let's drop all these talks about rules .... and let's focus on the topic of this discussion! Rest assured, dear forum users, that all of us - moderators of ANY of the Proz forums included - are bound to these rules.

Would be lovely to chat about everyone's experience on literary translation instead of forum rules! Now here's a shoutout - who here has worked on literary translation?

I for one have only done it a few times. One time I had to translate a piece on 吳冠中. While the work was immensely interesting, it was one of the most taxing exercise in my career as a translator. Translating 1,500 words really did take me half a day, if not more.


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