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正統中文指南 Style Guide to Authentic Chinese
Thread poster: Kenneth Woo
wherestip
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大家各抒己见而已 Mar 11, 2015

Hey, Kenny. 都怪我不好. I must have gotten out of the wrong side of the bed the other day. There's absolutely no need to get upset though. Please cheer up.

 
Kenneth Woo
Kenneth Woo
China
Local time: 20:32
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我也過激了 Mar 11, 2015

wherestip wrote:

Hey, Kenny. 都怪我不好. I must have gotten out of the wrong side of the bed the other day. There's absolutely no need to get upset though. Please cheer up.


不能全怪你。我剛剛說話也太衝了。但說出去的話,孫先生應該也看見了,無法收回,只能說聲對不起了。

我希望大家能心平氣和,客觀地討論。各人背景不同,經歷不同,觀點、好惡自然也不同,求同存異就好,不必相互抨擊,定要爭出個是非高下。


 
pkchan
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背影 - 朱自清 Mar 11, 2015

我與父親不相見已有二年餘了,我最不能忘記的是他的背影。那年冬天,祖母死了,父親的差使也交卸了,正是禍不單行的日子,我從北京到徐州,打算跟著父親奔喪回家。到徐州見著父親,看見滿院狼籍的東西,又想起祖母,不禁簌簌地流下眼淚。
父親說,“事已如此,不必難過,好在天無絕人之路!”

回家變賣典質,父親還了虧空;又借錢辦了喪事。這些�
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我與父親不相見已有二年餘了,我最不能忘記的是他的背影。那年冬天,祖母死了,父親的差使也交卸了,正是禍不單行的日子,我從北京到徐州,打算跟著父親奔喪回家。到徐州見著父親,看見滿院狼籍的東西,又想起祖母,不禁簌簌地流下眼淚。
父親說,“事已如此,不必難過,好在天無絕人之路!”

回家變賣典質,父親還了虧空;又借錢辦了喪事。這些日子,家中光景很是慘淡,一半為了喪事,一半為了父親賦閒。喪事完畢,父親要到南京謀事,我也要回到北京唸書,我們便同行。

到南京時,有朋友約去遊逛,勾留了一日;第二日上午便須渡江到浦口,下午上車北去。父親因為事忙,本已說定不送我,叫旅館裏一個熟識的茶房陪我同去。他再三囑咐茶房,甚是仔細。但他終於不放心,怕茶房不妥貼;頗躊躇了一會。其實我那年已二十歲,北京已來往過兩三次,是沒有甚麼要緊的了。他躊躇了一會,終於決定還是自己送我去。我兩三回勸他不必去;他只說,“不要緊,他們去不好!”

我們過了江,進了車站。我買票,他忙著照看行李。行李太多了,得向腳夫行些小費,才可過去。他便又忙著和他們講價錢。我那時真是聰明過分,總覺他說話不大漂亮,非自己插嘴不可。但他終於講定了價錢;就送我上車。他給我揀定了靠車門的一張椅子;我將他給我做的紫毛大衣鋪好坐位。他囑我路上小心,夜裏要警醒些,不要受涼。又囑托茶房好好照應我。我心裏暗笑他的迂;他們只認得錢,托他們直是白托!而且我這樣大年紀的人,難道還不能料理自己麼?唉,我現在想想,那時真是太聰明了。

我說道,“爸爸,你走吧。”他往車外看了看,說,“我買幾個桔子去。你就在此地,不要走動。”我看那邊月台的柵欄外有幾個賣東西的等著顧客。走到那邊月台,須穿過鐵道,須跳下去又爬上去。父親是一個胖子,走過去自然要費事些。我本來要去的,他不肯,只好讓他去。我看見他戴著黑布小帽,穿著黑布大馬褂,深青布棉袍,蹣跚地走到鐵道邊,慢慢探身下去,尚不大難。可是他穿過鐵道,要爬上那邊月台,就不容易了。他用兩手攀著上面,兩腳再向上縮;他肥胖的身子向左微傾,顯出努力的樣子。這時我看見他的背影,我的淚很快地流下來了。我趕緊拭乾了淚,怕他看見,也怕別人看見。我再向外看時,他已抱了朱紅的桔子往回走了。過鐵道時,他先將桔子散放在地上,自己慢慢爬下,再抱起桔子走。到這邊時,我趕緊去攙他。他和我走到車上,將桔子一股腦兒放在我的皮大衣上。於是撲撲衣上的泥土,心裏很輕鬆似的,過一會說,“我走了,到那邊來信!”我望著他走出去。他走了幾步,回過頭看見我,說,“進去吧,裏邊沒人。”等他的背影混入來來往往的人裏,再找不著了,我便進來坐下,我的眼淚又來了。

近幾年來,父親和我都是東奔西走,家中光景是一日不如一日。他少年出外謀生,獨立支持,做了許多大事。哪知老境卻如此頹唐!他觸目傷懷,自然情不能自已。情鬱於中,自然要發之於外;家庭瑣屑便往往觸他之怒。他待我漸漸不同往日。但最近兩年不見,他終於忘卻我的不好,只是惦記著我,惦記著我的兒子。我北來後,他寫了一封信給我,信中說道,“我身體平安,惟膀子疼痛利害,舉箸提筆,諸多不便,大約大去之期不遠矣。”我讀到此處,在晶瑩的淚光中,又看見那肥胖的,青布棉袍,黑布馬褂的北影。唉!我不知何時再能與他相見!

1925年10月在北京
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ysun
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误会 Mar 11, 2015

Kenneth Woo wrote:

我純粹只是分享。如果您覺得我推薦的東西不好,大可一笑置之,何須揪住一些問題不放,甚至挖出別的東西來,還加以譏諷?

文言白話各有長短,莫說我根本無褒此貶彼之傾向,就算有,又有何辜?有人喜歡吃西瓜,有人喜歡吃哈密瓜。難道因為自己喜歡吃西瓜就不許別人說西瓜不好?有些東西本來就無關是非,純屬個人好惡,為何要以是非判官自居?

你說陶傑的文章不好,甚至說他是漢奸王八蛋,我也沒意見。但我想指出,挑出一兩句話就想說明別人文章如何,並不教人信服。以此標準,司馬遷、曹雪芹、錢鍾書,文字也拙劣得很。今天我們看的《紅樓夢》,不少文句是經人潤飾的;太史公的《史記》,魯迅說過,仔細剖析,文句也有不通處;錢鍾書的英文,在豆瓣上更為一些後生小兒批得體無完膚。

我就是想分享個東西,沒別的意思,不料招致如此多非議。我想送人禮物,不論如何微賤,受之者也沒有把送禮者找來罵一頓的吧?頂多悄悄扔了。我現在就是個可憐的送禮人,沒收到聲真心誠意的謝謝,反而受人斥責這份禮物這裡不好,那裡不好,真叫人寒心。現在終於明白ProZ為什麼越來越冷清了。

我無心筆戰,以後的帖子也不再回應,累。

小吴:

你又误会了。我前面说的“褒扬文言、贬抑现代汉语的倾向确实存在”,并不是指你,而是说这种倾向在中国大陆及其他地方确实存在。对于这一点,我也只是谈自己的看法,毫无任何以是非判官自居的意思。

我对陶某文章的评论,毫无针对你的意思。我以陶某那段话为例,只是为了说明那段话“读起来很别扭,似乎他连标点符号都不大会用”。我并非攻其一点,不及其余。在他其他文章中,也可见到不少类似句子 。本来明明可以分成两三个短句的一段话,他却用一个很长的句子来表达,其中往往还加入插入语、同位语之类的东西。结果让人读起来很费解。这似乎是他的风格,但不值得效仿。

我毫无任何讥讽你的意思。我以陶某的说法来反驳他自己的观点。如果说是讥讽,也只是讥讽陶某而已。不过,我没说他是汉奸、王八蛋。他是否崇洋媚外,用不着我来下结论。我并不反对移民。移民不等于崇洋媚外。我只是纯粹从文字角度谈我自己的看法。你推荐他的文章供大家分享,别人可以说好,也可以说不好。这是很正常的。恐怕不能与送礼相提并论吧?

至于 ProZ 為什麼越來越冷清?我认为,一个主要原因就是有些人不但听不得不同意见,往往还对持不同意见者发动人身攻击。有些人贴出自己的译文,名义上是“恭请指教”,但实际上是希望别人夸奖。所以,当他们听到不同意见时就会感到不悦,从而引起一场争论甚至争吵。当然,为了避免新的误会,我必须强调,我这些话绝不是针对你的。这里的很多争论也是因误会而引起的。


 
wherestip
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Agree Mar 11, 2015

ysun wrote:

小吴:

你又误会了。我前面说的“褒扬文言、贬抑现代汉语的倾向确实存在”,并不是指你,而是说这种倾向在中国大陆及其他地方确实存在。对于这一点,我也只是谈自己的看法,毫无任何以是非判官自居的意思。

我对陶某文章的评论,毫无针对你的意思。我以陶某那段话为例,只是为了说明那段话“读起来很别扭,似乎他连标点符号都不大会用”。我并非攻其一点,不及其余。在他其他文章中,也可见到不少类似句子 。本来明明可以分成两三个短句的一段话,他却用一个很长的句子来表达,其中往往还加入插入语、同位语之类的东西。结果让人读起来很费解。这似乎是他的风格,但不值得效仿。

我毫无任何讥讽你的意思。我以陶某的说法来反驳他自己的观点。如果说是讥讽,也只是讥讽陶某而已。不过,我没说他是汉奸、王八蛋。他是否崇洋媚外,用不着我来下结论。我并不反对移民。移民不等于崇洋媚外。我只是纯粹从文字角度谈我自己的看法。你推荐他的文章供大家分享,别人可以说好,也可以说不好。这是很正常的。恐怕不能与送礼相提并论吧?

至于 ProZ 為什麼越來越冷清?我认为,一个主要原因就是有些人不但听不得不同意见,往往还对持不同意见者发动人身攻击。有些人贴出自己的译文,名义上是“恭请指教”,但实际上是希望别人夸奖。所以,当他们听到不同意见时就会感到不悦,从而引起一场争论甚至争吵。当然,为了避免新的误会,我必须强调,我这些话绝不是针对你的。这里的很多争论也是因误会而引起的。


Indeed. I see things the same way Yueyin does, specifically with regards to the discussions in this thread started by Kenny, and also generally to the history of unnecessarily unpleasant arguments over language issues that occurred in our forum.


[Edited at 2015-03-11 20:49 GMT]


 
Kenneth Woo
Kenneth Woo
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說明白就好了。 Mar 11, 2015

我必須道歉。對不起,老孫,誤會你了。希望你別把我那個帖子中的話放在心上。

 
ysun
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没什么 Mar 11, 2015

Kenneth Woo wrote:

我必須道歉。對不起,老孫,誤會你了。希望你別把我那個帖子中的話放在心上。

小吴:

不必道歉。我知道是误会所致,你并非是恶意攻击,所以我不会介意。同时,也要怪我说那句话(“褒扬文言、贬抑现代汉语的倾向确实存在”)时说得不够明确。这里有一篇关于文言化倾向的文章,我以前就看过。其中许多观点,我是认同的。现在再找出来供大家参考:

部分学术论著的文言化倾向忧思
http://www.qddxlib.cn/viewinfo.asp?id=6914


 
David Lin
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Moderator of this forum
Differences sorted and a small suggestion Mar 11, 2015

Steve, Ken and ysun,

I'm pleased you found the way that sorted your differences finally. It is not easy with such "misunderstanding" mushroomed so quickly. I however do agree with Steve that "Classical Chinese" was not meant to be the theme of the thread, Ken's personal favourites of two modern Chinese columnists was. It was great you sent your apology to Ken in a timely manner. It was a breakthrough after 20 posts were published and Ken pointed out the pre-supposition which was
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Steve, Ken and ysun,

I'm pleased you found the way that sorted your differences finally. It is not easy with such "misunderstanding" mushroomed so quickly. I however do agree with Steve that "Classical Chinese" was not meant to be the theme of the thread, Ken's personal favourites of two modern Chinese columnists was. It was great you sent your apology to Ken in a timely manner. It was a breakthrough after 20 posts were published and Ken pointed out the pre-supposition which was confusing.

As a moderator of the Chinese Forum I've observed your discussion with interest. In light of the "misunderstanding" which I believe is avoidable, I would like to suggest we use "constructive criticism" in our future postings when we disagree with each other. "Constructive" means we express our disagreement with reasons (without dwelling into too much negativeness) but we also suggest correction or new ideas. In this case, we could say we don't like 陶傑 and 古德明 because of this and that, but we also suggest new names of writers whom we admire most instead (with reasons).

If we do that we could gather a few names of prominent writers, discuss them in detail and consider whether we could adopt them to be our "admired" writing models who could benefit our translation career (own conclusion).

"Constructive criticism" is not perfect and is not the only way to deal with this kind of discourse but it is a proven tool for online (and offline) discussion for many decades. I've found two links as shown below.

This site provides set of skills among other things to help us deal with criticism while remaining calm and engaging
http://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/dealing-with-criticism.html

This link tells us the differences between "an insult" and "a negative feedback" and how to give constructive criticism.
https://corporatecoachgroup.com/blog/communication-skills-how-to-give-constructive-criticism

I hope you'll find them useful for your future discussion, perhaps also personal development as well as career enhancement.

I would like to take this opportunity to share with you a friendly reminder -- ProZ.com Forum expects users to show "mutual respect, professionalism and fair play" and to "treat each other with courtesy" in forum discussion.

Have a pleasant and fruitful exchange !
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ysun
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谢谢你的调解 Mar 12, 2015

David,

谢谢你的调解。不过,我与小吴之间的误会早已消除。小事一桩而已。我前面之所以说“翻译要看对象。例如,把奥巴马就职演说译为文言文就犹如对牛弹琴”,一是因为确实有人把奥巴马就职演说译为文言文,二是因为前面有人介绍了林纾先生的翻译。如果我没搞错的话,林纾先生的译文就是文言文。对于我那句话,小吴已经表示同意。所以,那句话没造成任
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David,

谢谢你的调解。不过,我与小吴之间的误会早已消除。小事一桩而已。我前面之所以说“翻译要看对象。例如,把奥巴马就职演说译为文言文就犹如对牛弹琴”,一是因为确实有人把奥巴马就职演说译为文言文,二是因为前面有人介绍了林纾先生的翻译。如果我没搞错的话,林纾先生的译文就是文言文。对于我那句话,小吴已经表示同意。所以,那句话没造成任何问题。引起误会的主要是我这句话:“不过,褒扬文言、贬抑现代汉语的倾向确实存在”。我的这句话,确实说得不够明确,但如果细看,应该还是可以看出并非针对小吴。如果我认为小吴有“褒扬文言、贬抑现代汉语的倾向”,我根本就不会公开说出来。即使要说,我也会直截了当地这样说:“你确实有褒扬文言、贬抑现代汉语的倾向”。显然,“There is indeed” 与 “You truly have” 之间是有很大区别的。当然,今后我会尽量避免类似误会。

至于我对陶杰文章的评论,我已经说得很清楚。我认为他的文章“读起来很别扭,似乎他连标点符号都不大会用”。我举的例子摆在那里,大家有目共睹。而且我相信,根据这里各位同仁的水平,不需要我做进一步解释。如果你认为有必要让我做进一步解释,进一步提供理由,我可以更具体地说明哪里读起来很别扭,哪些标点符号用得不对。而且,我还可以举出陶杰其他文章里的一些病句并加以具体分析。当然,陶杰被誉为“香江第一才子”。我批评他的文章,也许会被人认为是狂妄。但是,既然这里是讨论学术的论坛,就应该排除个人迷信和崇拜,允许大家发表各种不同看法。即使说错,经过讨论也会有所收益。以上意见,若有不妥,欢迎批评。

[Edited at 2015-03-12 05:08 GMT]
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QHE
QHE
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In His Own Words... Mar 12, 2015

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/陶傑



陶傑認為寫專欄要面對大眾,大眾有不同的階層和知識領域,要寫得較易引人共鳴。有時專欄文章寫得通俗,被部份人認為是意淫和滿紙淫穢的性比喻,不堪入目,其在壹本便利的專欄作風相似。 1996年4月在《呼吸詩刊》專訪中,被問為何不寫詩,回答:「理由很簡單,純是市場因素。畢業回港後,我覺得香港的文風氣退化了許多,與其寫一些沒有人會提起勁來讀的作品,倒不如妥協一下,在市場容許的隙縫中,又不完全出賣自己創作原則的情況下,寫一些較易引人注意和共鳴的作品。我現在寫專欄,雖不是自己最滿意的作品,但勝在有讀者,每天有百多字給我抒洩感情」

***

他同時為兩家死對頭報館寫社論,如曾分別任職兩家取向相反的報館即蘋果日報及東方日報,寫出政見和意識形態南轅北轍的文章,有意見指他毫無文人的風骨。他堅稱部分社論及專欄文章只是代表報館立場,無不妥之處。他自辯並比喻:“就像律師上庭為一個人辯護,他必須把自己從自我的角色釋放出來,做好律師的本份。”

***


[Edited at 2015-03-12 01:31 GMT]


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
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constructive criticism Mar 12, 2015

David,

I appreciate the advice. But I hope you don't mean like this ...





or worse, this ...






[Edited at 2015-03-12 02:13 GMT]


 
wherestip
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mostly well-intentioned Mar 12, 2015

I'm more of a cut-to-the-chase kind of person. But after years of participating in our forum, I know when to shut up too.

 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:32
English to Chinese
+ ...
应该怪我 Mar 12, 2015

wherestip wrote:

Hey, Kenny. 都怪我不好. I must have gotten out of the wrong side of the bed the other day. There's absolutely no need to get upset though. Please cheer up.

Steve,

引起误会的是我,所以这事应该怪我。你就不要一再道歉了。谢谢!这个论坛上要是每个人都能像你这样高姿态,那就太平了。


 
QHE
QHE
United States
Local time: 08:32
English to Chinese
+ ...
巧合 Mar 12, 2015

wherestip wrote:


or worse, this ...








 
David Lin
David Lin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:32
Member (2013)
English to Chinese
+ ...

Moderator of this forum
A compliment from David to Ken Mar 12, 2015

wherestip wrote:

David,

I appreciate the advice. But I hope you don't mean like this ...


or worse, this ...






[Edited at 2015-03-12 02:13 GMT]


Steve,

I wouldn't want you to say this to Ken of course because I notice his profile picture does not show too much hair already. But as a Chinese saying goes, "十个光头九个富“, you never know.

This is a compliment to Ken.


 
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