Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42] >
"这一次大陆又输了"
Thread poster: deleted. (X)
QHE
QHE
United States
Local time: 12:41
English to Chinese
+ ...
观察 Sep 26, 2014

jyuan_us wrote: 你的前提是/你的脑海中认为苹果DID A GOOD JOB in many aspects


那么苹果在翻译方面也一定会DID A GOOD JOB的(老兄, 有一个词叫over-generalization.)。 因此,不管它的翻译水平多么低、多么不准确、多么不入流,都不是翻译水平低,而是有专家故意进行了模糊处理。


如果这个译文是 Freelancer 为某公司的试译, 放到 KudoZ,不知会有什么评判。

当然,个人的知识背景职业经历会影响观察视角和思考方式。文学家艺术家与律师工程师相比,在形象思维和逻辑思维上会有差别。在这里的讨论过程中也不难看出思维方式的差别;也是互相启发学习的过程. 重要的是要尽可能客观,实事求是。


Kenneth Woo wrote:
輸入「豈止於」,選擇「古代漢語」,然後搜索,結果有 17 條。


谢谢 Kenneth.

读了这17 条搜索结果后的印象是:

1。 很明显17 条全部为古代汉语。
2。 大多数的句式均为: 岂止于 。。。哉?(!)
3。 另外几条的用法是: “岂止于” 后面接名词, 好象没有看到接形容词的。

只是个观察到的现像而已,可能也没必要更深入探讨了。





[Edited at 2014-09-26 02:27 GMT]


 
Kenneth Woo
Kenneth Woo
China
Local time: 00:41
English to Chinese
最後一次回應 Sep 26, 2014



Kenneth Woo wrote:
輸入「豈止於」,選擇「古代漢語」,然後搜索,結果有 17 條。


谢谢 Kenneth.

读了这17 条搜索结果后的印象是:

1。 很明显17 条全部为古代汉语。
2。 大多数的句式均为: 岂止于 。。。哉?(!)
3。 另外几条的用法是: “岂止于” 后面接名词, 好象没有看到接形容词的。

只是个观察到的现像而已,可能也没必要更深入探讨了。



[Edited at 2014-09-26 02:27 GMT]


「哉」為語氣助詞,加與不加,視作者語氣而定。雖然搜尋結果中以「豈止……哉」這一結構居多,但無「哉」字者亦有六條。

文言詞語一詞多性,不少兼司形容詞與名詞之職,以「大」為例,「大者三枚」、「罈高三尺,口小而腹大」裡,「大」為形容詞,而在「大如鵝卵」、「鯤之大,不知其幾千里也」裡,「大」則為名詞。

恕我直言,身為譯者,還是稍微要有一點文言基礎。如果連這樣的問題還要爭來爭去,那我真不知說什麼好了。

言辭多有得罪,請包涵。


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:41
Chinese to English
+ ...
取长补短 Sep 26, 2014

Kenny,

Let's allow for people to make their observations. I think that's all QHE was doing.

Often some discussions around English, IMO, are quite elementary too. We can't say because of that, we don't allow for some observations to be made or some doubts to be raised when folks are not fully convinced on some issue.


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:41
Chinese to English
+ ...
Going back to the original critique Sep 26, 2014

The person writing the critique certainly did not mince words in his bashing about mixing classical Chinese and standard Mandarin, and even used some foul language while at it. He himself likely didn't even realize that the titular slogan he was praising was styled in classical Chinese.

Quoting the guy himself, "不文不白" was deemed undesirable and inappropriate. I would categorize it as one of his secondary complaints in his criticism. ...
See more
The person writing the critique certainly did not mince words in his bashing about mixing classical Chinese and standard Mandarin, and even used some foul language while at it. He himself likely didn't even realize that the titular slogan he was praising was styled in classical Chinese.

Quoting the guy himself, "不文不白" was deemed undesirable and inappropriate. I would categorize it as one of his secondary complaints in his criticism.


[Edited at 2014-09-26 18:03 GMT]
Collapse


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:41
Chinese to English
+ ...
Halves :D Sep 26, 2014

I actually only started following this thread half way through, and even then only half-heartedly.

But I think I've made clear my neutral stance (half-way) on the slogan "岂_止于_大?" . I suggest we reserve our own opinions when we can't come to an agreement on whether it excelled or fell short.

One thing for sure is it is now accepted by Apple, and the public.


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:41
Chinese to English
+ ...
And Sep 26, 2014

I agree with Kenny and the many others that "岂_止于_大“ is classical Chinese (文言). This could be clearly seen by the last example Kenny listed in his search results ...

"... 夫神 岂止于 上?岂住于下?岂留中间?舒泽弥乎大千挈之,亦复无物。若随迹观相..."

Whether the public mistakes it for “白话” is another story. I myself certainly got duped in the beginning. Incidentally, that's one of the unnecessary confusions that
... See more
I agree with Kenny and the many others that "岂_止于_大“ is classical Chinese (文言). This could be clearly seen by the last example Kenny listed in his search results ...

"... 夫神 岂止于 上?岂住于下?岂留中间?舒泽弥乎大千挈之,亦复无物。若随迹观相..."

Whether the public mistakes it for “白话” is another story. I myself certainly got duped in the beginning. Incidentally, that's one of the unnecessary confusions that I was referring to previously in passing, once I realized that the translator/creator of the ad had mixed the two styles.

But I think it's all good in the name of advertising.


[Edited at 2014-09-26 15:06 GMT]
Collapse


 
Peter Zhuang
Peter Zhuang  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 17:41
German to English
+ ...
各花入各眼,就因如此,文字才变得有趣 Sep 26, 2014

有人喜欢白玫瑰,有人则喜欢红玫瑰。重要的是,观众群必须会欣赏。

管玄乐奏得再好再动人,只听流行乐的人也无法欣赏;重金属乐团表演得在卖力,对偏爱爵士乐的人来说也只是一团杂音。

跟菜市场里的大叔大婶聊天时,引用文言文,只会搞得大家一头雾水。跟大学教授谈文学时,说话太过直白,又可能被嫌没内涵。

语文虽然有一定的条理及规矩,但也不一定直接能分辨黑白对错。你说“计算器”我叫它“计算机”;你说它是“地瓜”我称它为“马铃薯”;你所提供的是“个人信息”还是“个人资料”;到底是因为“技术”发展还是“科技”发展使得苹果能推出新款的iPhone?

还是得问问读者的意见如何。


 
Kenneth Woo
Kenneth Woo
China
Local time: 00:41
English to Chinese
You're right. Sep 26, 2014

wherestip wrote:

Kenny,

Let's allow for people to make their observations. I think that's all QHE was doing.

Often some discussions around English, IMO, are quite elementary too. We can't say because of that, we don't allow for some observations to be made or some doubts to be raised when folks are not fully convinced on some issue.



You're right, Steve 前輩.

Still, however, I'd suggest that we translators learn a bit 文言, from which we can develop a larger vocabulary and some skills in making idiomatic new words or expressions. : )


 
Yan Yuliang
Yan Yuliang  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:41
English to Chinese
+ ...
全凭感觉 Sep 26, 2014

Peter Zhuang wrote:

有人喜欢白玫瑰,有人则喜欢红玫瑰。重要的是,观众群必须会欣赏。

管玄乐奏得再好再动人,只听流行乐的人也无法欣赏;重金属乐团表演得在卖力,对偏爱爵士乐的人来说也只是一团杂音。

跟菜市场里的大叔大婶聊天时,引用文言文,只会搞得大家一头雾水。跟大学教授谈文学时,说话太过直白,又可能被嫌没内涵。

语文虽然有一定的条理及规矩,但也不一定直接能分辨黑白对错。你说“计算器”我叫它“计算机”;你说它是“地瓜”我称它为“马铃薯”;你所提供的是“个人信息”还是“个人资料”;到底是因为“技术”发展还是“科技”发展使得苹果能推出新款的iPhone?

还是得问问读者的意见如何。



实际上,读者的意见也没那么复杂。尤其就广告而言,就是第一感觉:感觉好就是好。做transcreation的项目时,我通常以自己是否觉得满意,是否个人以为能达成沟通目的为准。

当然,这个是很主观的事情。但作为语言从业者,除了服从语言规则外,还是要有一点感性的。


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:41
Chinese to English
+ ...
Agree Sep 26, 2014

QHE wrote:

当然,个人的知识背景职业经历会影响观察视角和思考方式。文学家艺术家与律师工程师相比,在形象思维和逻辑思维上会有差别。在这里的讨论过程中也不难看出思维方式的差别;也是互相启发学习的过程. 重要的是要尽可能客观,实事求是。



Very well said, QHE.


 
David Lin
David Lin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:41
Member (2013)
English to Chinese
+ ...

Moderator of this forum
辩论后感 Sep 26, 2014

各位同仁:

这个比较敏感的题目讨论到现在,大家的表现都非常专业。你们把一个容易被爱国情绪影响的论题,毋需互相践踏、贬抑或讥讽,而是运用专业翻译者的语文能力、敏锐的眼光、冷静且客观的态度及竭而不舍的研究和好学的精神,深入分析、探讨和交流。甚至将一个贴题发展为三个无形的分题。这证明了一点:我们了解并超越自己的地域界限,明白学而后知不足,在寻求真理和更专业的道路上,能够更上一层楼。

这正符合了 ProZ.com 论坛创立的宗旨 -- “提倡相互尊重、公平参与,弘扬职业精神。”

作为中文论坛的 Moderator 之一,看到这些进步,心中有莫名的激动。在此再多谢各位同仁的合作和支持。

通過各方舉證和自由辯論,相信大家应该可从帖文中找到一些结论或启发,对于以后的翻译工作有所裨益。

请继续分享辩论后的个人感想。:)


 
Kenneth Woo
Kenneth Woo
China
Local time: 00:41
English to Chinese
A more powerful corpus Sep 27, 2014

http://www.cncorpus.org/ACindex.aspx

Make sure you tick 全文檢索 and 關鍵詞居中顯示 and you will get 137 hits for 豈止於 on the above site. : )


[Edited at 2014-09-27 03:27 GMT]


 
Loise
Loise
France
Local time: 17:41
French to Chinese
+ ...
你的理解非常正确 Sep 27, 2014

QHE wrote:

Loise wrote: 参考一下法文版的翻译

Plus grand que grand
L’iPhone 6 n’est pas seulement plus grand en taille. Il est plus grand en tout. Plus large, mais beaucoup plus fin. Plus puissant, mais remarquablement économe en énergie.


谢谢 Loise 提供的法文版译文。和英文对照着读了一下,觉得挺有意思。

“Plus grand que grand” 这句没有按原文逐字直译 ,因为那样的话 ,读起来象是绕口令. 加之推出的是一对新款手机 , iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus, 这样译是有道理的( 英文 bigger than bigger 实际上也有这层意思 )。

在英文中 Big 与 Large 有些微妙的区别; 而 “grand “好象囊括了英文中 Big 与 Large 的含 义 。另外法语的 “large” 和 英文” large” 含义有些区别 ,法文 “large” 更强调宽度; “Plus large” 正好表明屏幕更宽大 。

此外 plus grand “en taille” , “économe” en énergie 使意思更明确 。

我法文知识有限, 有错误理解的地方希望多多指教 。


[Edited at 2014-09-26 01:51 GMT]

QUE,
同意你的解读。
法文里未将bigger直译成两个大的比较级,这是因为法文的比较级是plus+形容词,直译后会变成“Plus grand que plus grand”,读起来的确很像绕口令。


 
Loise
Loise
France
Local time: 17:41
French to Chinese
+ ...
大字的词性 Sep 27, 2014

岂止于大的大字是名词。中文里,通常形容词、名词、动词都使用同样的字或词,大字的形容词跟名词没有英文里的big-bigness (the quality of being big)的形式变化,而其他的例子,如轻字通常作形容词解,但“生命中不能承受之轻”的轻字则是名词,此处的轻也没有英文的light-lightness(the quality of being lignt or illuminated)的变化。妙字通常是形容词,但老子的“玄之又玄,众妙之门”的妙字是则名词,而此处的玄字,则可能是名词,也可能是形容词。花通常是名词,而眼花缭乱的花却是形容词(或动词?)。
所以,在中文里,我们通常无法从字或词本身去判断其词性,而必须从整个句子的结构去判断它是形容词、名词或动词。


 
David Lin
David Lin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:41
Member (2013)
English to Chinese
+ ...

Moderator of this forum
沒結果 Sep 27, 2014

Kenneth Woo wrote:

http://www.cncorpus.org/ACindex.aspx

Make sure you tick 全文檢索 and 關鍵詞居中顯示 and you will get 137 hits for 豈止於 on the above site. : )


[Edited at 2014-09-27 03:27 GMT]


Ken,

第一個北大的搜尋站我只找到兩個結果,而且都是你那 17 個以外的。好奇怪!

這個新的網站則連一個結果都沒出來。

如有時間,可否引述新的搜尋結果,分享一下?如可能,毋需重復之前北大的 17 個結果。

先謝謝。


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

"这一次大陆又输了"






Trados Business Manager Lite
Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio

Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.

More info »
Protemos translation business management system
Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!

The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.

More info »