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Off topic: 泰晤士(TIMES)四合院儿
Autor de la hebra: QHE

wherestip  Identity Verified
Estados Unidos
Local time: 22:45
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article or no article Apr 13

Fargoer wrote:

wherestip wrote:
I'm not sure about this phenomenon; but I think an article is normally needed unless a phrase has become a known idiom, in which case it would often be extremely odd to use one. The example you've given "baby on board" would be one such instance.


我知道 “on board” 是惯用语, “board” 前面加冠词意思就变了。但我想说的是,“Corn on Ear” 是翻译中生造的术语。如果被普遍接受,它就是一个固定的搭配。依我之愚见,其语法地位与惯用语差不多。第一次看到会觉得有些别扭,也多少映照了它的异域特点。以后习以为常就和“baby on board” 差不多了。 


Fargoer,

I agree with you; but that's a big if. The acceptance for some of these new-fangled English terms and phrases, created initially(or solely) for the consumption of a Chinese audience, depends on how they eventually are received by a much wider audience.

Even then, I can think of some terms of this construction which are part of the English vernacular that still need an article, for example:

corn on the cob
peas in a pod
slap on the wrist
slap in the face
shot in the arm
fly on the wall
pie in the sky
foot in the door
pig in a poke
elephant in the room
head on a platter
pain in the neck
stick in the mud
kick in the pants
The Catcher in the Rye

Leaving out the article, these phrases just wouldn't sound right. Conversely, some idioms wouldn't fly if an article were added:

hat in hand
tongue in cheek
white on rice
hand in glove
hand over fist
head over heels

Anyway, not that I agree with these 2 translations (for the term 芒种), but if solely being pressed on the issue of whether to use an article, I would definitely choose to use one, the reason being they are most similar in construction (and meaning) to the well-known English phrases "corn on the cob" and "peas in a pod".


[Edited at 2017-04-14 02:21 GMT]


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Fargoer
Canadá
Local time: 21:45
inglés al chino
的确如此 Apr 14

wherestip wrote:
but that's a big if.  


Steve,

您说得一点不错。一个本地文化中完全没有的概念,从外国语文中翻译过来,有多少人注意到,有多少人感兴趣,本身就是一个很大的问题。更不要说译成的文字是否被认可了。所以,所谓的“普遍接受”可能永远不会发生。 

中国人动不动就说 “丢脸”,译成英文 “lose face” 好像已经是被接受了的。但是本地人是否都懂它的意思,就很难说了。这里 “face” 前面也没有冠词。如果说“lose my face” 或者 “lose the face of Chinese people....” 恐怕更容易引起误解。不用冠词或物主代词,这个 “face” 是否比较抽象一些?



Anyway, not that I agree with these 2 translations for the term 芒种, but if push comes to shove on the issue of whether to use an article, I would definitely choose to use one, the reason being they are most similar in construction (and meaning) to the well-known English phrases "corn on the cob" and "peas in a pod".


毫无疑问,“Corn on the ear" 读起来比较顺。但是也容易和 “corn on the cob” 混淆,好像说的是一种食品。“Corn on Ear” 读起来有点怪,首字母又都大写,也许可以提醒读者,这里讲的不是具体的食物,而是一种比较抽象的本地文化没有的季节概念。

另外,我觉得有趣的是译者在翻译“芒种”时,既没有提及 “芒”,也没有提及 “种”,而是用了不相干的 “corn”。其用心耐人寻味。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Loan translations Apr 14

Fargoer wrote:

中国人动不动就说 “丢脸”,译成英文 “lose face” 好像已经是被接受了的。但是本地人是否都懂它的意思,就很难说了。这里 “face” 前面也没有冠词。如果说“lose my face” 或者 “lose the face of Chinese people....” 恐怕更容易引起误解。不用冠词或物主代词,这个 “face” 是否比较抽象一些?



Fargoer,

Indeed. The abstract sense of "face" you cited is said to be borrowed from the Chinese concept of 脸面. But I'm not sure that the lack of an article in the English usage of "lose face" need be attributed to a superficial word-for-word translation. One can certainly say "lose sleep", "lose patience", "lose appetite", "lose money", etc. without qualms of making any grammatical blunders.



毫无疑问,“Corn on the ear" 读起来比较顺。但是也容易和 “corn on the cob” 混淆,好像说的是一种食品。“Corn on Ear” 读起来有点怪,首字母又都大写,也许可以提醒读者,这里讲的不是具体的食物,而是一种比较抽象的本地文化没有的季节概念。

另外,我觉得有趣的是译者在翻译“芒种”时,既没有提及 “芒”,也没有提及 “种”,而是用了不相干的 “corn”。其用心耐人寻味。


All kidding aside, I do think you make a good point about the intentional odd phrasing of certain foreign terms. It indeed stands out(or differentiates) and prompts one to take a second look.


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Local time: 22:45
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Grammar Apr 14

I was flipping through the TV channels yesterday, momentarily staying on the Steve Harvey Show.

A black English teacher in the audience was giving Steve Harvey a hard time, complaining about his on-air bad grammar. The two of them argued back and forth, all in good fun of course.

Before the segment broke away for commercial, Steve Harvey had the last word, "Which do you prefer: I am broke, or I is rich? ".  


[Edited at 2017-04-14 14:02 GMT]


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Fargoer
Canadá
Local time: 21:45
inglés al chino
错中对 Apr 14

wherestip wrote:

I was flipping through the TV channels yesterday, momentarily staying on the Steve Harvey Show.

A black English teacher in the audience was giving Steve Harvey a hard time, complaining about his on-air bad grammar. The two of them argued back and forth, all in good fun of course.

Before the segment broke away for commercial, Steve Harvey had the last word, "Which do you prefer: I am broke, or I is rich? ".  


[Edited at 2017-04-14 14:02 GMT]


 只要有钱,语法错不错算什么?


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Fargoer
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Local time: 21:45
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多谢理解 Apr 14

wherestip wrote:


All kidding aside, I do think you make a good point about the intentional odd phrasing of certain foreign terms. It indeed stands out(or differentiates) and prompts one to take a second look.


Steve,

和您谈论问题很受益。您的学识和您的坦诚都令我敬佩。


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QHE
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"corn" Apr 15

Fargoer wrote:
另外,我觉得有趣的是译者在翻译“芒种”时,既没有提及 “芒”,也没有提及 “种”,而是用了不相干的 “corn”。其用心耐人寻味。


其实,Steve 在前面已经提到 “corn” 在英国英语里含有 “芒” (谷类植物) 的意思:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/corn
                 1 corn
3 British :  the grain of a cereal grass that is the primary crop of a region (as wheat in Britain and oats in Scotland and Ireland); also :  a plant that produces corn

wherestip wrote:
According to the dictionary entry I listed above, the Brits sometimes use the word "corn" to refer to the grain of wheat-like cereal plants, in that sense the translation of "corn on the ear" would be marginally acceptable.



从英国谷物法(Corn Laws) 也可以看到 "corn" 泛指谷物的用法:

https://www.britannica.com/event/Corn-Law-British-history

Corn Law, in English history, any of the regulations governing the import and export of grain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_Laws

The Corn Laws were measures enforced in the United Kingdom between 1815 and 1846, which imposed restrictions and tariffs on imported grain. They were designed to keep grain prices high to favour domestic producers.


我觉得译者把谷雨/ 小满 /芒种分别译为"Corn Rain" / "Corn Forms" / "Corn on Ear", 可能是为了体现农作物发芽生长成熟的过程。


[Edited at 2017-04-15 01:50 GMT]


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Fargoer
Canadá
Local time: 21:45
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茅塞頓開 Apr 15

QHE wrote:

Fargoer wrote:
另外,我觉得有趣的是译者在翻译“芒种”时,既没有提及 “芒”,也没有提及 “种”,而是用了不相干的 “corn”。其用心耐人寻味。


其实,Steve 在前面已经提到 “corn” 在英国英语里含有 “芒” (谷类植物) 的意思:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/corn
                 1 corn
3 British :  the grain of a cereal grass that is the primary crop of a region (as wheat in Britain and oats in Scotland and Ireland); also :  a plant that produces corn

wherestip wrote:
According to the dictionary entry I listed above, the Brits sometimes use the word "corn" to refer to the grain of wheat-like cereal plants, in that sense the translation of "corn on the ear" would be marginally acceptable.



从英国谷物法(Corn Laws) 也可以看到 "corn" 泛指谷物的用法:

https://www.britannica.com/event/Corn-Law-British-history

Corn Law, in English history, any of the regulations governing the import and export of grain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_Laws

The Corn Laws were measures enforced in the United Kingdom between 1815 and 1846, which imposed restrictions and tariffs on imported grain. They were designed to keep grain prices high to favour domestic producers.


我觉得译者把谷雨/ 小满 /芒种分别译为"Corn Rain" / "Corn Forms" / "Corn on Ear", 可能是为了体现农作物发芽生长成熟的过程。


[Edited at 2017-04-15 01:50 GMT]


看來譯者真的是下了點功夫研究的。我把“corn”理解得太狹窄了。多謝提點!


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Local time: 22:45
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Good Job Apr 15

QHE wrote:

The 24 Solar Terms

      二十四節氣
      春雨驚春清穀天,夏滿芒夏暑相連;
      秋處露秋寒霜降,冬雪雪冬小大寒。
      每月兩節不變更,最多相差一兩天;
      上半年來六廿一,下半年來八廿三。


    solar
           The 24 Solar Terms - HK Observatory



QHE wrote:

我觉得译者把谷雨/ 小满 /芒种分别译为"Corn Rain" / "Corn Forms" / "Corn on Ear", 可能是为了体现农作物发芽生长成熟的过程。



Fargoer wrote:

看來譯者真的是下了點功夫研究的。...



Thanks, Fargoer and QHE.

I agree with you both. I also noticed that by translating 谷雨/ 小满 /芒种 into "Corn Rain" / "Corn Forms" / "Corn on Ear", the entire translation was able to stay within the framework of year-round natural phenomena rather than to reference any human activities.

Anyway, I think we all gained some insight from a discussion like this.  


[Edited at 2017-04-15 18:03 GMT]


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QHE
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Thank you Steve! Apr 15

wherestip wrote:

Anyway, I think we all gained some insight from a discussion like this.  




      Easter


      [Edited at 2017-04-15 18:52 GMT]

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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Local time: 22:45
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Happy Easter Apr 16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XitCa2hPvcU

Easter Parade (Liberace)




In your Easter bonnet
With all the frills upon it
You'll be the grandest lady
In the Easter parade

I'll be all in clover
And when they look you over
I'll be the proudest fellow
In the Easter parade

On the Avenue
Fifth Avenue
The photographers will snap us
And you'll find that you're in the rotogravure

I could write a sonnet
About your Easter bonnet
About the girl I'm taking
To the Easter parade


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Happy Easter 2017 Apr 16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU5kyvUNjYE


Easter Parade (Rosemary Clooney)




In my Easter bonnet
With all the frills upon it
I’ll be the grandest lady
In the Easter parade

I'll be all in clover
And when they look me over
You’ll be the proudest fellow
In the Easter parade

On the Avenue (There with the crowd)
Fifth Avenue (We’ll be so proud)
The photographers will snap us
And you'll find that you're in the rotogravure

Oh, you may write a sonnet
About my Easter bonnet
And of the girl you’re taking
To the Easter parade


In your Easter bonnet
With all the frills upon it
You’ll be the grandest lady
In the Easter parade

I'll be all in clover
And when they look me over
You’ll be the proudest fellow
In the Easter parade

On the Avenue (There with the crowd)
Fifth Avenue (You’ll be so proud)
The photographers will snap us
And you'll find that you're in the rotogravure

Oh, you may write a sonnet
About my Easter bonnet
And of the girl you’re taking
To the Easter parade


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David Lin  Identity Verified
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Local time: 04:45
Miembro 2013
inglés al chino
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Moderador de este foro
An across-the-Atlantic linguistic issue Apr 17

wherestip wrote:

QHE wrote:

The 24 Solar Terms

      二十四節氣
      春雨驚春清穀天,夏滿芒夏暑相連;
      秋處露秋寒霜降,冬雪雪冬小大寒。
      每月兩節不變更,最多相差一兩天;
      上半年來六廿一,下半年來八廿三。


    solar
           The 24 Solar Terms - HK Observatory



QHE wrote:

我觉得译者把谷雨/ 小满 /芒种分别译为"Corn Rain" / "Corn Forms" / "Corn on Ear", 可能是为了体现农作物发芽生长成熟的过程。



Fargoer wrote:

看來譯者真的是下了點功夫研究的。...



Thanks, Fargoer and QHE.

I agree with you both. I also noticed that by translating 谷雨/ 小满 /芒种 into "Corn Rain" / "Corn Forms" / "Corn on Ear", the entire translation was able to stay within the framework of year-round natural phenomena rather than to reference any human activities.

Anyway, I think we all gained some insight from a discussion like this.  


I'm pleased you sorted this discussion on classical term translation in a meaningful and enlightening manner.

The British use of "corn" to mean "grain" in general is key here. People living in Britain (including I) would not engage in such a discussion because we've the same understanding, but people in North America (as you, QHE and Fargoer) use "corn" to mean "maize" 玉米, a usage which has been populated across the world by the fast food chains Kentucky Fried Chicken or Burger King's rather delicious food product corn on the cob with butter.

The source of the "24 Solar Terms" comes from the Hong Kong Observatory, as cited by QHE. This reaffirms the use of "corn" to be in British English only due to the city's former British colony background, rather than the North American usage. It's another typical context dictating usage case.

Not only that, today's widely-used Chinese lunisolar calendar is based on Shixian Calendar 时显历 developed by two European Jesuit missionaries Johann Schreck and Johann Adam Schall von Bell 汤若望神父 back in 1624 - 1644 when they lived in China, both of whom were multi-linguist scholars (e.g. They had German, Italian, Portuguese, French and English between them, not to mention Mandarin).

Any translation of the 中国阴历 or 农历 into British English (or English English) rather than American English in the course of the past several centuries would not, in my view, be a surprise at all.

Today, the British English version has helped the understanding of the non-Chinese speakers in the UNESCO screening committee when they approved the 24 Solar Terms to become the UN World Intangible Cultural Heritage late last year.


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QHE
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Grammar Apr 20

wherestip wrote:

Before the segment broke away for commercial, Steve Harvey had the last word, "Which do you prefer: I am broke, or I is rich? ".  


- “including him”, or “including I” ?


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QHE
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Missed Points Apr 20

    David Lin wrote:

    The British use of "corn" to mean "grain" in general is key here.


      In fact, that was not the main point of what we were discussing.



    David Lin wrote:
    Not only that, today's widely-used Chinese lunisolar calendar is based on Shixian Calendar 时显历 developed by two European Jesuit missionaries Johann Schreck and Johann Adam Schall von Bell 汤若望神父 back in 1624 - 1644 when they lived in China, both of whom were multi-linguist scholars (e.g. They had German, Italian, Portuguese, French and English between them, not to mention Mandarin).


      《崇祯历书》
      https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/崇祯历书

      《崇祯历书》是大明崇祯年间为历法改革而编著的一部丛书,因由崇祯帝下令编纂故名[1];又称《時憲曆》,此曆法及其修訂版本由清朝初年源用至今。该书在崇祯二年(1629年)九月由礼部左侍郎徐光启成立曆局开始编写,到崇祯七年(1634年)十一月编完[2]。由于徐光启在1633年病逝,之后的编纂工作由李天经主持。

      编纂过程
      在编纂过程中,曆局聘请来华耶稣会的龙华民(意大利人,参与短期编制)、罗雅谷(葡萄牙人)、邓玉函(瑞士人,参与短期编制)、汤若望(日耳曼人)等人参与译书,编译或节译哥白尼、伽利略、第谷、开普勒等著名欧洲天文学家的著作[7]。从崇祯二年到崇祯七年陆续编成书。

      Xu Guangqi 徐光启
      http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Biographies/Xu_Guangqi.html



    David Lin wrote:

    Today, the British English version has helped the understanding of the non-Chinese speakers in the UNESCO screening committee when they approved the 24 Solar Terms to become the UN World Intangible Cultural Heritage late last year.



      http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/en/decisions/11.COM/10.B.6
      Nomination file no. 00647 / Dossier de candidature n° 00647

      B.1. Name of the element in English or French
      The Twenty-Four Solar Terms, knowledge of time and practices developed in China through observation of the sun’s annual motion

      Les vingt-quatre périodes solaires, la connaissance du temps et les pratiques développées en Chine à travers l’observation du mouvement annuel du soleil


      B.2. Name of the element in the language and script of the community concerned,
      if applicable
      二十四节气——中国人通过观察太阳周年运动而形成的时间知识体系及其实践


      B.3. Other name(s) of the element, if any
      The Twenty-four Solar Terms is also commonly known as the Twenty-four Solar Terms in Chinese Agricultural Calendar. The solar terms are: Beginning of Spring, Rain Water, Insects Awakening, Spring Equinox, Fresh Green, Grain Rain, Beginning of Summer, Lesser Fullness, Grain in Ear, Summer Solstice, Lesser Heat, Greater Heat, Beginning of Autumn, End of Heat, White Dew, Autumnal Equinox, Cold Dew, First Frost, Beginning of Winter, Light Snow, Heavy Snow, Winter Solstice, Lesser Cold, and Greater Cold.


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