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How to prove that you are a native speaker
Thread poster: Carolyn Oliveira
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:26
Member (2008)
Italian to English
But - !! Feb 6, 2016

Texte Style wrote:

..... I got my A levels from a prestigious top ten grammar school in the south of England (FWIW of course no potential client would know how prestigious it is unless I tell them, which I don't)


But you did tell *us*, although I'm dying to know exactly how prestigious.

[Edited at 2016-02-06 09:46 GMT]


 
Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:26
Serbian to English
+ ...
A can of worms? Feb 6, 2016

Angela Rimmer wrote:

Oh boy, you are going to regret the can of worms you just opened! *Cue the parade of translators debating nature speakership and its relevance"

...


A can of worms?

Most discussions about "nativeness" end up feeling more like walking straight into a minefield!

Strangely enough, the discussion is so far pretty tame in this round ...

I would maybe reformulate your question - how would you prove your "nativeness" to someone who hasn't got the first clue about your native language - that's when it becomes really silly/ridiculous!


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 16:56
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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SITE LOCALIZER
Sue them Feb 7, 2016

In many countries it is considered discriminatory to insist on linguistic or ethnic preferences for government jobs. Take advice from a good lawyer and see if your country's laws allow a public job posting to mention such discriminatory conditions, especially since the university is likely to be funded by public money.

As to proving whether you are a native speaker or not, you can't prove it by flaunting your proficiency in English. Many native speakers of English don't have any pro
... See more
In many countries it is considered discriminatory to insist on linguistic or ethnic preferences for government jobs. Take advice from a good lawyer and see if your country's laws allow a public job posting to mention such discriminatory conditions, especially since the university is likely to be funded by public money.

As to proving whether you are a native speaker or not, you can't prove it by flaunting your proficiency in English. Many native speakers of English don't have any proficiency in English, yet they are native speakers.

In fact native speaking has no relevance to translation, which is why I would recommend legal action against the university.
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Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:26
English to German
Ask them Feb 7, 2016

The only way forward is to ask them what they want from you.

You can provide proof of your qualifications and maybe a reference from a university tutor to confirm your abilities?

However, a passport is confidential and doesn't proof anything. Most people in my village have a British passport, however, I wouldn't think that too many are proficient in the English language.

Both my children have a German passport, they are fluent in German, they can read and w
... See more
The only way forward is to ask them what they want from you.

You can provide proof of your qualifications and maybe a reference from a university tutor to confirm your abilities?

However, a passport is confidential and doesn't proof anything. Most people in my village have a British passport, however, I wouldn't think that too many are proficient in the English language.

Both my children have a German passport, they are fluent in German, they can read and write it, it's their mother tongue - but English is their first and best language.
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Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:26
Hebrew to English
Precision is everything Feb 7, 2016

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Many native speakers of English don't have any proficiency in English, yet they are native speakers.


Unless someone has a learning disability or language disorder, then native speakers of English are perfectly proficient in English. What you mean is that they aren't very literate.
Fortunately, these people rarely embark on a career in translation, for obvious reasons.


Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
which is why I would recommend legal action against the university.


I wouldn't, because:
a) It isn't clear where the preference is coming from: the university, the agency (or both).
See:
One of the agencies I freelance for is participating in a public bid for a university. They stated a preference for native English speakers but failed to specify how to prove that you are one.


b) It isn't illegal. We've been over this before, it seems they aren't employing the OP as an employee (when discrimination law would really kick in), they are contracting her as a freelancer.


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 16:56
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
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No they are not Feb 7, 2016

Ty Kendall wrote:

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Many native speakers of English don't have any proficiency in English, yet they are native speakers.


Unless someone has a learning disability or language disorder, then native speakers of English are perfectly proficient in English.


A British national who has grown up and stayed put in say Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Turkey, is unlikely to be proficient in English, even when they have no learning disability or language disorder, yet English would technically be their native language.

[Edited at 2016-02-07 14:42 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:26
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
To prove you are a native speaker of a certain language Feb 7, 2016

is like to prove you are the child of your mother.


It is hardly possible to have an indisputable evidence unless you present a video to show your mother was actually giving birth to you. The certificate of birth can be a fake one so it cannot be used as a valid evidence.


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:26
French to English
exactly Feb 7, 2016

Dan Lucas wrote:

However, for technical or financial text, in which clarity is the overriding factor, the key issues are spelling, punctuation and avoiding obvious Briticisms.



they are precisely the two fields I avoid like the plague


 
Helena Chavarria
Helena Chavarria  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:26
Member (2011)
Spanish to English
+ ...
You might not be asked to prove anything Feb 7, 2016

Carolyn Oliveira wrote:

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I'm new to the forums.

One of the agencies I freelance for is participating in a public bid for a university. They stated a preference for native English speakers but failed to specify how to prove that you are one.

The best I could think of was to provide an authenticated copy of my passport and birth certificate, but I'm not sure how this proves that I'm a native speaker (especially since I have dual citizenship and was not born in the US).

Any advice?


Are you sure you need to prove you're a native speaker? If the agency doesn't believe you, then why should they believe anything you write?

People usually take my word for it when I say I'm British, though on a couple of occasions an outsourcer has phoned me after they have received my CV to ask whether or not I'm available and to offer me work. I suppose the real reason they phoned was to find out if I was a native speaker of English but, because I've got nothing to hide, I don't mind receiving the occasional phone call.

[Edited at 2016-02-07 16:26 GMT]


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:26
French to English
well Feb 7, 2016

Tom in London wrote:

Texte Style wrote:

..... I got my A levels from a prestigious top ten grammar school in the south of England (FWIW of course no potential client would know how prestigious it is unless I tell them, which I don't)


But you did tell *us*, although I'm dying to know exactly how prestigious.

[Edited at 2016-02-06 09:46 GMT]


I told *you*, a bunch of translators. I'm pretty sure none of my clients hang out here

As I said it's top ten school, i.e. that's systematically included in the "top ten" in the "league tables" for exam results (published in what passes for a newspaper in my parents' home). So there's a chance the info might impress someone in the UK, in France it doesn't impress anyone at all. If I've left it in it's simply to show that I am a native English speaker.


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:26
French to English
actually Feb 7, 2016

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

A British national who has grown up and stayed put in say Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Turkey, is unlikely to be proficient in English, even when they have no learning disability or language disorder, yet English would technically be their native language.

[Edited at 2016-02-07 14:42 GMT]


I know a guy whose father was in the British army, the family was mainly stationed in Germany and Cyprus. His English is impeccable and he's far more "typically English" than me.


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 16:56
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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The Indian case Feb 8, 2016

Texte Style wrote:

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

A British national who has grown up and stayed put in say Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Turkey, is unlikely to be proficient in English, even when they have no learning disability or language disorder, yet English would technically be their native language.

[Edited at 2016-02-07 14:42 GMT]


I know a guy whose father was in the British army, the family was mainly stationed in Germany and Cyprus. His English is impeccable and he's far more "typically English" than me.



The British soldier you mention might have spent just a few years outside Britain and must have moved around mostly within his platoon or brigade speaking English most of the time.

The Indian case is more illustrative. the Indian diaspora is vast and exists in all countries and linguistic regions of the world. It is a very common experience that the ones who have moved out of India at a younger age, mostly remain deficient in their native language (Hindi, Tamil, etc) and become more proficient in the language of their adopted country (mostly English). Their second generation all but loses the native Indian language. Yet they all claim to be native speakers of Hindi, Tamil etc., and technically they are correct too.

The same thing happens within India too, where there are distinct linguistic regions. The Indian states in fact reflect this reality as each state's geographical area is coterminus with the region of a specific language like Tamil, Malayalam, etc. People constantly move from one state to the other in search of jobs and other opportunities and loose and gain languages. I recently encountered a Gujarati jeweler in Mumbai who had grown up in Madurai, in Tamil Nadu. I was astonished to see that he spoke chaste Madurai Tamil even better than me. Although a Tamilian myself, I am twice removed from my native language as my parents moved to Malayalam speaking Kerala several generations ago and I myself moved to Hindi-speaking Lucknow as a child.

So nativesness has no connection with language proficiency - you can choose to be proficient in any language you want to, provided you make that choice early in life. In most cases the "choice" is made by circumstances of your life. But these days many people make that choice on their own also, such as the ones migrating to another country.

It is unfortunate that our profession has got into the muddle of giving so much importance to this unscientific concept. This could be the result of translation agencies and businesses not spending much money on scientific research on such a crucial aspect of their business. I don't think there is any other profession in the world that is based on blatant untruths and prejudices.


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 16:56
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
That is easy Feb 8, 2016

jyuan_us wrote:

is like to prove you are the child of your mother.


What is more difficult to prove is that you are the child of your father!

Same is the case with proving a certain language is your native language. There are two competing definitions:

1. The language with which you are born and which is associated with your family or clan.

Explicitly or otherwise this is what is implied when agencies and clients ask for native language speakers.

The second definition is what should really matter:

2. The language in which you are most proficient and into which you work as a translator.

Unfortunately, this definition is never used, and the first definition has the backing of tradition, superstition and inertia.

The only hope is to leave the decision to time. As the world integrates and people move around more and more, the type of a person being also proficient in his native language will become less and less common, and the type of a person being more proficient in a language other than his native language will become more and more the norm. And probably, at that tipping point, the conception of native language will change from being the language associated with your birth and family to the one that represents the language in which you are most proficient.

[Edited at 2016-02-08 03:18 GMT]


 
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 12:26
English to Polish
+ ...
Sorry it's happening to you Feb 15, 2016

Carolyn Oliveira wrote:

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I'm new to the forums.

One of the agencies I freelance for is participating in a public bid for a university. They stated a preference for native English speakers but failed to specify how to prove that you are one.

The best I could think of was to provide an authenticated copy of my passport and birth certificate, but I'm not sure how this proves that I'm a native speaker (especially since I have dual citizenship and was not born in the US).

Any advice?


Sorry it's happening to you. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be. Try to understand them, though. The world's full of people with some sort of connection to an English-speaking country who fancy themselves native speakers.

Still, don't feed the paranoia. At some point they've got to believe you. Showing a document that lists not only you but both of your parents with typical English names or one parent with a typical English name and your place of birth as being in an English-speaking country should be conclusive enough.

What else? It's one thing to become near-indistinguishable in writing, another to be able to fool a real native speaker of sound hearing in a longer oral conversation. Actuve interpreters, long-term expats etc. tend to have a bit of a foreign accent from their second language, but in 9 out of 10 cases it should be easy enough to tell.

In any case, getting a nice little note from your professional association or your embassy, or both, would be the most elegant solution.

Texte Style wrote:

Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

A British national who has grown up and stayed put in say Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Turkey, is unlikely to be proficient in English, even when they have no learning disability or language disorder, yet English would technically be their native language.

[Edited at 2016-02-07 14:42 GMT]


I know a guy whose father was in the British army, the family was mainly stationed in Germany and Cyprus. His English is impeccable and he's far more "typically English" than me.


A gurkha no doubt.

[Edited at 2016-02-15 15:20 GMT]

jyuan_us wrote:

is like to prove you are the child of your mother.


It is hardly possible to have an indisputable evidence unless you present a video to show your mother was actually giving birth to you. The certificate of birth can be a fake one so it cannot be used as a valid evidence.


Oh, c'mon, there's ways of disputing that too.

[Edited at 2016-02-15 15:21 GMT]

Ty Kendall wrote:

b) It isn't illegal. We've been over this before, it seems they aren't employing the OP as an employee (when discrimination law would really kick in), they are contracting her as a freelancer.


Probably still enough to give them an acute case of attorneyitis if you sneeze in the right place. Not that you should ever be such a mean person as to do just that, of course.

[Edited at 2016-02-15 15:22 GMT]


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:26
Member (2008)
Italian to English
No proof required Feb 15, 2016

Carolyn Oliveira wrote:

.....They stated a preference for native English speakers but failed to specify how to prove that you are one. .....


So no proof is required - at this stage.

Probably if you progress to the next stage there will be an oral examination to test you.

I remember that when I enrolled to study at an Italian university I was asked to confirm on the application form that I had good knowledge of the Italian language. Some time later I was called to attend an examination that consisted of participating in a discussion, in Italian.

I passed.

In your case, the language will be English. They say they "prefer" native English speakers but if your English is up to par, you'll be laughing and it'll be a piece of cake. A walk in the park, in fact. As easy as falling off a log. A cinch.

I hope you know what that all means.



[Edited at 2016-02-15 16:31 GMT]


 
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How to prove that you are a native speaker







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