| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Attention Outsourcers: "best" rate Thread poster: Susan Welsh
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Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 00:09
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | There is no insult involved here | Jun 29, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Demanding the best rate/price is an insult to any pro,
We are after all running responsible businesses, and no one can insult us if we don't allow it. We are free to decline or keep mum about jobs that don't fit our requirements. Where does insult come into the picture?
No one can insult you without your allowing him to do so. If you do allow, then the fault is in you.
[Edited at 2015-06-29 16:35 GMT]
| | | | | Speaking as a pro | Jun 29, 2015 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Demanding the best rate/price is an insult to any pro, We are after all running responsible businesses, and no one can insult us if we don't allow it. We are free to decline or keep mum about jobs that don't fit our requirements. Where does insult come into the picture? No one can insult you without your allowing him to do so. If you do allow, then the fault is in you. [Edited at 2015-06-29 16:35 GMT]
Balasubramaniam,
It's a general assessment of what "demanding the best rate/price" really means and that any professional translator/language expert should not only be insulted by it when it's used on him/her personally (which they should anyway) but that it is an insult to the entire profession when it is used on job portals that are read by thousands of translators every day as if there's nothing wrong with it. The phrase means "cheapest" or "as low as you can possibly go." Don't try to dispute that. You know it's true. There's proof.
Don't try to pick a specific and limited meaning (like it's only an insult if YOU YOURSELF (Balasubramaniam) accept it as an insult) to suit your purpose here (which by the way doesn't seem like you are speaking for professionals). That would simply be your purpose.
There are things many people consider insults were they said to them. But to many, "best rate" seems to some without any negative meaning or consequences for our profession. Many agencies use it and find people who will willingly "quote" peanuts.
Just open your mind and be willing to see what is wrong with the phrase. You'd be helping every single translator.
Excusing the phrase and the use of the phrase is not helpful within a community that calls itself and thinks of itself (as) professional.
If I get a demand personally for the best rate, it is an insult, and even if it isn't intended to be an insult, it shows ignorance and/or lack of knowledge by the user of the phrase. Similarly, if a translator finds nothing wrong with it, some discussion is in order. That's why I try to talk about it, to change things, to work to improve our profession.
Shooting me down is not going to silence me or any real pro. The proof is in the rates/prices that thousands of translators willingly accept or quote every day, and many agencies unjustly demand.
[Edited at 2015-06-29 18:29 GMT]
| | | | Thomas Pfann
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Member (2006)
English to German
+ ...
| Too many assumptions | Jun 29, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
The phrase means "cheapest" or "as low as you can possibly go." Don't try to dispute that. You know it's true. There's proof.
That's what you keep saying and I don't dispute that this is what it means. However, I don't see how this can be insulting. "As low as you can possibly go" only becomes unprofessional if it is actually "lower than you should go" or "lower than what would enable you to make a decent living".
It is a standard phrase in everyday business life and it only becomes insulting after you have made all those assumptions about those who use the phrase ("only pay peanuts", "bad payment terms", "don't care about quality", "bottom-feeder"...).
Two examples of clients, both contacting the translator for the first time:
Client A: "Hi X, I need the attached file translated into your language by Friday. Rate is X. Can you take this on?"
Client B: "Hi X, I need the attached file translated into your language. When can you do it and what is your best rate for this?"
Which one is more insulting? The client who thinks she can dictate the rate (regardless of whether that's a "good rate" or a "low rate") or the client who asks me what my price is?
There are a great many things which are insulting to our profession (one of them might be the assumption that upon hearing the phrase "best rate" any professional translator would fall on their knees and quote an unsustainably low rate), but for me the good old concept of "best rate"/"best price" as a negotiation opener is not one of them.
By all means, keep educating clients and translators (!) about decent rates and decent working conditions, but don't get distracted by an innocent turn of phrase.
| | | | | Its not just that term | Jun 29, 2015 |
This term alone doesn't offend me and I would still apply with what I consider an appropriate rate, unless the whole post was written in a demanding style, e.g. you need to do a, b and c, we pay you 'next to nothing', you are required to deliver yesterday ... I do find this more patronising.
Today I came across this: 'Please note proposal needs to be realistic as further work will be provided', which, as I found out meant just the same as 'best rate'.
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| Demanding "best rates/prices" is simply unprofessional and doesn't help our profession | Jun 29, 2015 |
Thomas Pfann wrote: Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
The phrase means "cheapest" or "as low as you can possibly go." Don't try to dispute that. You know it's true. There's proof.
That's what you keep saying and I don't dispute that this is what it means. However, I don't see how this can be insulting. "As low as you can possibly go" only becomes unprofessional if it is actually "lower than you should go" or "lower than what would enable you to make a decent living".
And I'll keep saying it. It doesn't mean "you, Thomas," it means, as low as one/anyone can possibly go - we pay peanuts -, or, as you so succinctly phrased it:
"lower than you should go" or "lower than what would enable you to make a decent living".
Exactly.
Thomas Pfann wrote:
It is a standard phrase in everyday business life and it only becomes insulting after you have made all those assumptions about those who use the phrase ("only pay peanuts", "bad payment terms", "don't care about quality", "bottom-feeder"...).
It's not standard anymore, if it ever was, for professional translators or any service provider. It goes without saying that a pro will quote a reasonable price. But he/she will not be forced into thinking that he/she has to become "cheap" to get the project. And still, that's what's demanded.
Thomas Pfann wrote:
Two examples of clients, both contacting the translator for the first time:
Client A: "Hi X, I need the attached file translated into your language by Friday. Rate is X. Can you take this on?"
Client B: "Hi X, I need the attached file translated into your language. When can you do it and what is your best rate for this?"
Which one is more insulting? The client who thinks she can dictate the rate (regardless of whether that's a "good rate" or a "low rate") or the client who asks me what my price is?
Bot examples are unprofessional/insulting, it doesn't matter which one is more unprofessional. It's not likely that the client proposes an adequate rate in your first example. He/she has already made up his/her mind about how much he/she wants to pay and when the translation should be delivered. That's not how you approach a professional service or business, especially not a serious translator.
This is how it should go:
Client C: "Hi X, I would like the attached file translated into your language. How long would it take? What would it cost?"
Thomas Pfann wrote:
There are a great many things which are insulting to our profession (one of them might be the assumption that upon hearing the phrase "best rate" any professional translator would fall on their knees and quote an unsustainably low rate), but for me the good old concept of "best rate"/"best price" as a negotiation opener is not one of them.
The sad fact is that many translators don't care or don't understand that it's not only insulting but a blatant and very often successful attempt to pay rock bottom prices. You, Thomas, are not going to quote an inadequate rate, but many will because it's a demand to compete on price, and that's what they have been "taught" to do on many portals. Only the cheapest will "win."
Thomas Pfann wrote:
By all means, keep educating clients and translators (!) about decent rates and decent working conditions, but don't get distracted by an innocent turn of phrase.
There's nothing innocent about it.
Let's not excuse practices in our profession that work against us. How does that help our profession?
[Edited at 2015-06-29 19:16 GMT]
| | | | | There are lots of other hints about unprofessional people/practices | Jun 29, 2015 |
Gabriele Demuth wrote:
This term alone doesn't offend me and I would still apply with what I consider an appropriate rate, unless the whole post was written in a demanding style, e.g. you need to do a, b and c, we pay you 'next to nothing', you are required to deliver yesterday ... I do find this more patronising.
Today I came across this: 'Please note proposal needs to be realistic as further work will be provided', which, as I found out meant just the same as 'best rate'.
There are many versions (euphemisms) for "best rate/price" and there are plenty of other insulting and patronizing phrases used by unprofessional people everyday. Don't let those people exploit you!
[Edited at 2015-06-29 19:17 GMT]
| | | | | Please don't ask me for my best rate... | Jun 29, 2015 |
... when you already know my rates or could find them out in a couple of mouse clicks.
Oh, and don't include me in mass emails either.
Either you want me to do the job and you're willing to pay my published rates or not, so don't waste my time.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:09
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Neither are you | Jun 30, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Don't try to pick a specific and limited meaning (like it's only an insult if YOU YOURSELF (Balasubramaniam) accept it as an insult) to suit your purpose here (which by the way doesn't seem like you are speaking for professionals). That would simply be your purpose.
Neither are you speaking for the profession when you institute a jehad on this site on the supposed insulting nature of best rates. What you take best rate to mean is merely an interpretation that you have made of the term, and it perhaps serves some selfish purpose of yours.
To others best rate simply means a polite and mature way of saying we are open to negotiating the price. That is how most business transactions in any field begin. Now it is up to the translator to make a success of the negotiation or mess it up. If he messes it up, he should take the blame squarely on his shoulders like a man, and not blame the other negotiating party.
Also, as an independent professional, we are fully free to not enter into any negotiation with clients we don't fancy. I wouldn't take it as an insult if such a client tries to negotiate with me, I would simply ignore him. It doesn't take much effort to do that, you will agree.
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 02:39
Chinese to English
| Perils of being a one-man band | Jun 30, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Demanding "best rates/prices" is simply unprofessional and doesn't help our profession
I actually don't quite agree with this. Market negotiations are a part of every business. I think the difference is that most other professionals are insulated from the raw price negotiations by layers of sales people, business managers and the like. Because we are single-person enterprises, we have to do our own sales, our own negotiating, and our own closing.
Price negotiations are crass. By their very nature, they distill our work and our time down to a single number. But that doesn't make them unprofessional - it's just a different profession: sales.
But I know what Bernhard means. Traditionally, professionals (as opposed to businesspeople) don't talk about money. The fact that we have to talk about money can be jarring. But that is just the nature of freelance life. I take best price talk to be a signal not of unprofessionalism, but just that the client can't really afford me.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 14:39
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 00:09
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | The prism of word rate can distort things | Jun 30, 2015 |
Much of the problem gets obfuscated when we look only at the word rate and cry foul that it is too low.
Wiser translators would look at bringing in a certain amount of revenue at the end of say a month, that meets their desired standards of living (which is also dependent on the cost of living around them).
Looked at this way, we can get greater flexibility over rates. We can take some jobs at lower rates (but not "peanut" rates of course), and some at higher rates, and... See more Much of the problem gets obfuscated when we look only at the word rate and cry foul that it is too low.
Wiser translators would look at bringing in a certain amount of revenue at the end of say a month, that meets their desired standards of living (which is also dependent on the cost of living around them).
Looked at this way, we can get greater flexibility over rates. We can take some jobs at lower rates (but not "peanut" rates of course), and some at higher rates, and try to balance the income flow and make it match with our desired monthly figure. We can have a mix of low-paying (but reliable clients who offer many jobs) and high-paying ( who offer one or two jobs a year) clients in our portfolio, and can keep juggling the portfolio so that we continue to meet our monthly income goals.
Instead, if we keep our gaze fixed a word rate and use that as a standard for accepting or rejecting a job, we will often end up letting go profitable business opportunities from our grasp.
[Edited at 2015-06-30 02:51 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Susan Welsh wrote:
For an outsourcer to ask potential translators to give their "best" rate is like hanging out a big, red flag inscribed: WE ARE BOTTOM-FEEDERS, LOOKING FOR CHEAPEST TRANSLATORS; QUALITY IS NOT AN ISSUE.
I usually hit the delete button immediately.
On occasion I reply by giving a very high rate, commenting that my "best" rate is given for my best work.
Agree. Except see my add-on below about quality.
Susan Welsh wrote:
I imagine this post is a waste of time, but if just one outsourcer learns something from it, maybe it will have been worth the minute it took me to write it.
I am going to say this: if just one translator learns something from it, maybe it will have been worth the minutes it took me to write about it.
PS: I should add that it's often expected that the translator actually do a terrific job for peanuts (just check some project posts on translation portals), and if the end client complains, the outsourcer will feel let down. Crazy world. Just don't bother with "best rate/price" bid demands. Quote a professional rate. Do a professional job. Get paid adequately for intellectual work. Or get a job washing dishes. You won't have to think. And there won't be any hassle about the quality of your work. I should hope.
[Edited at 2015-06-30 04:56 GMT]
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Peter Zhuang
Germany
Local time: 20:39
German to English
+ ...
| Different ways of competing | Jun 30, 2015 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Unfortunately, you are in "good" company. Educate yourself would be my advice.[Edited at 2015-06-29 18:27 GMT]
I think I can disagree with your assessment without being called ill-informed and ignorant. Thank you very much.
"Best price", as much as I personally loathe the phrase because of its clumsiness, isn't necessary an insult.
There are many different ways business compete with each other, and price is part of the equation. It's not uncommon that retailers advertise with "best price guarantee" or "lowest price". Case in point: there is a electronic retailer in Germany called Notebooksbillger - literally translated, notebooks cheaper.
It's unlikely that these retailers meant "best" or "cheapest" as an affront to themselves or their customers.
| | | | | Couldn't agree more! | Jun 30, 2015 |
I couldn't agree more, Peter! I think various things have emerged from this lengthy thread; that the phrase "best rate" is not necessarily an insult, and that in any case you are not forced to accept it, whatever it is.
Peter Zhuang wrote:
"Best price", as much as I personally loathe the phrase because of its clumsiness, isn't necessary an insult.
There are many different ways business compete with each other, and price is part of the equation. It's not uncommon that retailers advertise with "best price guarantee" or "lowest price". Case in point: there is a electronic retailer in Germany called Notebooksbillger - literally translated, notebooks cheaper.
It's unlikely that these retailers meant "best" or "cheapest" as an affront to themselves or their customers.
| | | | | Best Rate + Tight deadlines | Jun 30, 2015 |
[quote]Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
"To others best rate simply means a polite and mature way of saying we are open to negotiating the price. That is how most business transactions in any field begin. Now it is up to the translator to make a success of the negotiation or mess it up. If he messes it up, he should take the blame squarely on his shoulders like a man, and not blame the other negotiating party."
As best rates often go along with very tight deadlines, there is not much room (time) for negotiation.
[Bearbeitet am 2015-06-30 10:59 GMT]
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