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A large agency's new pricing structure for translations utilizing CAT tools
Thread poster: Robert Forstag
LEXpert
LEXpert  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 15:12
Member (2008)
Croatian to English
+ ...
Reasonable Feb 27, 2015

Actually, that breakdown is pretty reasonable. There are plenty of agencies who pay nothing for reps or 100% matches, and I've even seen a few that pay nothing for 95-99% matches, because "in our experience these don't actually require any work by the translator" (!?).
Many also insist on use of a (particular) CAT tool, even though the savings on that job are zero, but you never know, 3 years from now the client might have a similar 1000-word job and if we populate the TM with the bilingua
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Actually, that breakdown is pretty reasonable. There are plenty of agencies who pay nothing for reps or 100% matches, and I've even seen a few that pay nothing for 95-99% matches, because "in our experience these don't actually require any work by the translator" (!?).
Many also insist on use of a (particular) CAT tool, even though the savings on that job are zero, but you never know, 3 years from now the client might have a similar 1000-word job and if we populate the TM with the bilingual file now we can save 5 dollars on the next one...
The time spent troubleshooting problems cannot be discounted. This is a routine occurrence for Trados jobs, and even my heretofore stable and trusty MemoQ installation has become remarkably buggy with 2014R2. Just yesterday I spent half the morning trying to recover a file that wouldn't export to target. Certainly that more than negated any efficiency benefit on that particular file.
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Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 21:12
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
It depends on the rate you start with, but looks fine. Feb 27, 2015

My husband worked for a company that was a sub-supplier of parts to a lot of big names around Europe and some even further away.

Some of their customers liked big discounts, while others did not care for discounts; they wanted the lowest possible basic rate.

For the first group, the accounts department calculated the price of the order, added 5%, and gave a 5% discount.
For the second group they simply quoted the price straight out.

I use a CAT, and a
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My husband worked for a company that was a sub-supplier of parts to a lot of big names around Europe and some even further away.

Some of their customers liked big discounts, while others did not care for discounts; they wanted the lowest possible basic rate.

For the first group, the accounts department calculated the price of the order, added 5%, and gave a 5% discount.
For the second group they simply quoted the price straight out.

I use a CAT, and am very happily working for a client right now who operates with a very similar scale to the one you describe. As Gitte said, I set the rate.

In fact I simply would not have time for his job without the CAT - but as I did a similar one for him earlier, 23% of the text is already in the TM as 100% and Context matches, translated by me, and he is paying me 50% to proofread it again in the new context.

There are some fuzzy matches where I am very happy with 75%, as they save me a lot of time in this particular case. That will get me through another 25% or so of the total.

For anything below 85% matches, he is paying 100%.

I am probably going to be finished faster than I was with the first job. I can offer CAT discounts AND earn very good hourly rates on these jobs.
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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 21:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Very generous, if you ask me Feb 27, 2015

Robert Forstag wrote:
Repetitions: 25%
100% Matches: 25%
95-99%: 50%
85-94%: 50%
75-84%: 100%
50-74%: 100%
No match: 100%


The fact that they pay for repetitions and 100% matches is already a good sign, and the fact that they don't pay 10% for it but 25% is an extra good sign. Also the fact that they realise that any matches below 85% should be paid in full (100%) is a very good sign.

I would consider as "minimally viable" for a translator based in any Western country earnings on a project that translate into at least $40/hour. Is this possible through such a scheme?


I think that if you use CAT and you are paid according to the above-mentioned structure, you'll earn more money than if you were paid the full rate for all words but didn't use CAT.


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 20:12
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Technology WILL reduce the price of the unit - it's inevitable Feb 27, 2015

mariealpilles wrote:
CAT Tools will never replace the human brain and they have led to people believing that Google translate can do the job!

Some people who have absolutely no idea what a translator does (maybe thinking we're walking dictionaries), and no need to know, may think that. But if they don't need translations, their opinion is inconsequential. As we and our informed clients know, that bears absolutely no relationship whatsoever with reality. And if our clients aren't informed then it's our job to inform them, sharpish.

Unfortunately too many translators think that CAT tools are so fantastic that they are ready to go along. I have never used any and do make good money while enjoying working around with words.

You've never used them yet you're so sure they are bad for the industry? Surely it's normal for you to charge less per word than if you had to write out every word long-hand, starting again if you made a mistake, and then writing out a second copy long-hand for your own files?

I repeat what I always say: when you go to the butcher you do not order the butcher to cut your piece of meat with such or such a knife and then claim that because it is the one he uses all day for each and every client you only pay 25% of the price he wants for the meat.

Think of a different analogy: what would it cost for a kilo of meat in 2015 if your butcher had to (a) make a spear, (b) hunt the animal down, (c) joint it with a blunt axe, and (d) carry it on his back to you? That may sound irrelevant but most butchering is done by hi-tech machines and processes nowadays; why not translations? Luddites were never going to save the world - they simply got themselves thrown out of work, and into an early grave in some cases, while everyone else got on with earning a living.

"No, I will not be exploited" is a fine placard to hang round your neck. But you can't stop the world.


 
Georgie Scott
Georgie Scott  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 21:12
French to English
+ ...
Charging full price for repetitions would be dishonest surely Feb 27, 2015

I know it's not the subject of the discussion, but in response to those who are anti-CAT tools, don't you feel like a crook charging full price for translating the same sentence over and over?

And don't you feel like a mug for writing it out in full every time?

I gave someone a lesson in translation the other day and it took all of 10 minutes for him to stop me (because we weren't using a CAT tool) and say - surely I don't have to keep writing this sentence out in full
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I know it's not the subject of the discussion, but in response to those who are anti-CAT tools, don't you feel like a crook charging full price for translating the same sentence over and over?

And don't you feel like a mug for writing it out in full every time?

I gave someone a lesson in translation the other day and it took all of 10 minutes for him to stop me (because we weren't using a CAT tool) and say - surely I don't have to keep writing this sentence out in full every time? If CAT tools didn't exist, this guy would definitely have begun inventing one that day.

And if you don't use a CAT tool how do you deal with glossaries and brand terminology? I have a client who has some 30 pages of specific terminology I'm to follow. Trados suggests their terms to me automatically every time they come up. What do you do? Search individually through every terminology document? How long does this take you? What sort of rate do you charge to reconcile this with your hourly rate?

How? How? How? I can't get my head around this animosity towards CAT tools and this stubborn persistence that they exist to reduce translator salaries.

I earn more with CAT tools. And translation is expensive. I know that. And I'll do anything to make it better value for my clients without reducing the amount that I'm paid. Doing this will also make translation more accessible to businesses and individuals with reduced budgets.

My lawyer does the same and that's why I keep going with him. Lawyers are expensive, but I need one. I stick with him because I know he'll save me money when he can but that he would never work for free or for less than his hourly rate. That's why I bring my business to him and recommend him to others. If he accepted earning less than his hourly rate or didn't make things cheaper for me when he could or charged me for work he wasn't really doing I would have left him a long time ago. That's business, isn't it?

If you don't use CAT tools how do you increase the value you provide your clients year on year? If you just use your own memory - what can they do when you're busy working on something else? Do you just exercise your monopoly on their terminology and force them to wait? Is that fair? Is that the sort of world you want to live in?


I have not seen one person say that they work for less because of CAT tools. I see lots of people saying they earn more with them and a couple of people saying they believe it will destroy the industry. To those people, have you reduced your rates? Is that what you're saying? Because isn't that another of your bête noires? That you are against people reducing their rates because it brings the average industry rate down? What's really going on here? Do you secretly use CAT tools and know how much time it saves you and you want to discourage others in order to secure your cushy position?



Regarding those rates, they seem ok to me. If the 85%-94% matches were not saving me time I'd have a word with the PM. The PMs I work with are all understanding and reasonable people. If there was a problem with the TM, I believe we'd find a solution.
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Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 21:12
German to English
not dishonest Feb 27, 2015

I use a CAT and am actually in the process of figuring out how to sensibly offer reductions for matches, because I do have some clients where matches are beginning to become a potentially relevant factor.

However, referring to charging "double" for repetitions as dishonest is not really a tenable position.

I personally charge my full price for translating the word "und", although everyone knows it is translated as "and" in English. Not only that, I may end up charging
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I use a CAT and am actually in the process of figuring out how to sensibly offer reductions for matches, because I do have some clients where matches are beginning to become a potentially relevant factor.

However, referring to charging "double" for repetitions as dishonest is not really a tenable position.

I personally charge my full price for translating the word "und", although everyone knows it is translated as "and" in English. Not only that, I may end up charging a client for this word dozens or hundreds of times in a single translation. On the other hand, I charge the same for the 34th instance of "und" in a document and some word that I have to research for 10 minutes in order to figure out how to express it just right in English.

My point is that word prices (or whatever unit prices people may use) are arbitrary and inexact when looked at in detail, but they are entirely adequate in the greater scheme of things.

Lots of translators don't have any clients with 30-page terminology lists and lots of translators don't work in a context where TM matches represent a significant factor in their work. The isolated case of a match charged at 100% isn't dishonest, it's irrelevant.
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Diana Obermeyer
Diana Obermeyer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:12
Member (2013)
German to English
+ ...
Benefits differ... Feb 27, 2015

interpretwhisky wrote:

And if you don't use a CAT tool how do you deal with glossaries and brand terminology? I have a client who has some 30 pages of specific terminology I'm to follow. Trados suggests their terms to me automatically every time they come up. What do you do? Search individually through every terminology document? How long does this take you? What sort of rate do you charge to reconcile this with your hourly rate?


I wholeheartedly agree with that.
I have a few direct clients in similar specialised fields, each with their own preferences for certain terms. I would never be able to remember who preferred which term, who wants it spelled with a hyphen and who likes to see it written as one word... Yet, it's such a simple process in MemoQ: A general termbase for the subject and a client-specific termbase for their specific preferences. Some of these glossaries have been laboriously developed in collaboration with the client to also smooth out variations between their departments.
Quickly adding a key term in a document to the termbase, or a name to the non-translatable list results in significant time-savings simply by not having to type it out each time, even if I never have to use it again.

On the original subject:
I think those discounts are reasonable, if they are based on internal matches.
I'm far more sensitive when discounts are suggested for lower match rates, which this agency has avoided and that really speaks for them. I usually simply don't charge for repetitions but then the full amount for fuzzies. I also offer this to my direct clients - some of them may be tempted to edit out sections I already translated for them in the past, which would compromise my understanding of the text as a whole! Long-term cooperation simply cannot be based on squeezing every penny out of the other party.

The end result would be very similar; at least it would level itself out over a few documents.

Finding a reasonable standard discount is quite difficult, as the benefits derived for different language combinations differ a lot. A 95% match in English can be substantially different in German, but a 95% match in a German source text will usually be virtually identical in English. Consequently, I'm far more likely to agree to any sort of discount when English is the target, not the source language.


 
Georgie Scott
Georgie Scott  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 21:12
French to English
+ ...
Repetitions are for segments, not words Feb 27, 2015

Michael Wetzel wrote:

I use a CAT and am actually in the process of figuring out how to sensibly offer reductions for matches, because I do have some clients where matches are beginning to become a potentially relevant factor.

However, referring to charging "double" for repetitions as dishonest is not really a tenable position.

I personally charge my full price for translating the word "und", although everyone knows it is translated as "and" in English. Not only that, I may end up charging a client for this word dozens or hundreds of times in a single translation. On the other hand, I charge the same for the 34th instance of "und" in a document and some word that I have to research for 10 minutes in order to figure out how to express it just right in English.

My point is that word prices (or whatever unit prices people may use) are arbitrary and inexact when looked at in detail, but they are entirely adequate in the greater scheme of things.

Lots of translators don't have any clients with 30-page terminology lists and lots of translators don't work in a context where TM matches represent a significant factor in their work. The isolated case of a match charged at 100% isn't dishonest, it's irrelevant.


Hi Michael,

I see your point but I'm not referring to repeated words, I'm referring to repeated segments ie. whole sentences.

For example, one wine seller will almost always use the same phrase for the title "tasting notes" (which will take up one segment if it's a title). If I translate the notes for this wine seller's entire collection of wines, I will translate this title repeatedly. If I use a CAT tool it takes me less time to press Ctrl+Enter than it takes me to write out "tasting notes" and then proofread later to make sure I haven't introduced a typo. In fact with a CAT tool I often wouldn't even need to press Ctrl+Enter in this instance.

Given my experience with CAT tools, if I did translate this sort of text without one and chose to repeatedly write out the entire phrase, I would feel like I was wasting my time and being dishonest, because I know I could translate that segment faster and therefore cheaper with a CAT tool.

I really don't think it's dishonest not to use a CAT tool and I understand lots of people won't work with repeat clients who request the same specific and approved translations of their terminology time and time again.

Honestly, I think that's brilliant. I am genuinely delighted to see so many experienced and successful translators working without CAT tools or without the need to keep word counts or create business plans. That's great. It shows that the industry is wonderfully diverse and no one model dictates the rules for everyone else.

The hyperbole is simply in response to the repeated accusation that CAT tools and CAT tool users are destroying the industry and reducing rates. It is the equivalent of the non-existent argument that those who don't use them are giving the industry an unprofessional image (not an opinion I hold, or one I've ever heard expressed, by the way - just more hyperbole).

I am however interested to know how someone would deal with 30 pages of approved terminology if they didn't use a CAT tool.

And how do you address the fact that some smaller businesses simply can't afford translation? Wine sellers in particular. Some of them don't have huge budgets but translation will add value in the long run. If I can reduce the amount they have to pay without reducing the amount I am paid, translation will become more accessible for them.


CAT tools aren't perfect, but they need perfecting through feedback and collaboration rather than being dismissed offhand as the tools of crooks and bottom feeders.


I would point out as well that if TM matches don't represent a significant factor in your work, this entire discussion is irrelevant. If there are no repetitions or fuzzy matches, you receive the full rate. I regularly work with agencies where this is the case. They run the report on the text, calculate the rate accordingly and ask me if I agree. When there are repetitions and matches, they suggest a discount. Where there aren't any, they don't.

[Edited at 2015-02-27 13:30 GMT]

[Edited at 2015-02-27 13:36 GMT]


 
Gabriele Demuth
Gabriele Demuth  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:12
English to German
I have seen worse Feb 27, 2015

I would consider that reasonable, from an agency although I prefer not to give discounts on fuzzy matches but rather assess the document as a whole.

There is one agency that had such a table, a bit less agreeable, on top they asked for unclean as well as clean files when delivering and TM I think?! I haven't had any work from them yet, but I don't think I want to do that.


 
Maxi Schwarz
Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:12
German to English
+ ...
Whose pricing structure Feb 28, 2015

It always gets me when a customer tells me "his" price, when he is asking me for *my* service. That is so backward that it shouldn't even need explaining - and yet we need to explain.

 
564354352 (X)
564354352 (X)  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 21:12
Danish to English
+ ...
Where is the Like button? Feb 28, 2015

Maxi Schwarz wrote:

It always gets me when a customer tells me "his" price, when he is asking me for *my* service. That is so backward that it shouldn't even need explaining - and yet we need to explain.



Hear, hear...

[Edited at 2015-02-28 09:59 GMT]


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:12
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Glad to hear it Feb 28, 2015

interpretwhisky wrote:

...... the repeated accusation that CAT tools and CAT tool users are destroying the industry and reducing rates. It is the equivalent of the non-existent argument that those who don't use them are giving the industry an unprofessional image (not an opinion I hold, or one I've ever heard expressed, by the way - just more hyperbole).


I'm very glad to hear it. The professionalism of anyone - a translator or anyone else - is to be determined not on the basis of the tools they use, but on the basis of the quality of the service they provide.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 21:12
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Nothing strange about it Feb 28, 2015

Maxi Schwarz wrote:
It always gets me when a customer tells me "his" price, when he is asking me for *my* service. That is so backward that it shouldn't even need explaining...


There is nothing backward about a client saying "I'll trade you X for Y". What's more backward is expecting the client to say "I'll trade you X for something, but you'll have to tell me what".

Remember, from a purely commercial point of view, the buyer offers, and the seller accepts/rejects. The translator does not "offer" to do the translation for a certain amount. The client is the one that offers to pay a certain amount for it. Any rate mentioned by the translator is not an offer, but simply an indication of what kind of an offer he'll consider. I know that it appears to work the other way (i.e. the translator says "I'll do it for X" and the client says "Okay, I accept X, please go ahead"), but in reality, the client's response actually means "Okay, I offer X", and then the translator accepts that offer.


 
philgoddard
philgoddard
United States
German to English
+ ...
Robert Feb 28, 2015

Whatever the pros and cons of TM (and this thread has been an excellent summary of both), this is just plain bullying. They should be sending this email to their customers, not to you.

Does the name of the company begin with T, by any chance?


 
Cristóbal del Río Faura
Cristóbal del Río Faura  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 21:12
English to Spanish
+ ...
Yes Feb 28, 2015

Robert Forstag wrote:
My question is whether any of you who use CAT tools (I do not) can earn a viable income through such a pricing structure.


I have been using CAT tools for 20 years, and the answer is yes. The price structure you mentioned is reasonable and not uncommon in the market. Anyway, the price structure is something you have to discuss and agree with each client for the mutual benefit. To this, you take into account the quality of the TM (especially if the TM is not yours) and the various types of matches, i.e. assess the quality of what you are going to proofread/edit. That's how you do with any proofreading/editing job, isn't it? Of course, all this is done easier when you use CAT tools.

[Edited at 2015-02-28 17:59 GMT]


 
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A large agency's new pricing structure for translations utilizing CAT tools







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